dale and zooBy Jim Adair

Lawrence Dale has shut down his controversial RealtySellers private sales brokerage and is now group head, real estate business for Rogers Communications, owners of the Zoocasa. com website. Rogers has applied to become a licensed real estate brokerage across the country and will relaunch the site in mid-May.

Becoming licensed gives Zoocasa access to real estate boards’ MLS data, improving its home search engine for potential buyers. The site will also help consumers find a qualified real estate agent. Zoocasa is setting up a referral network of agents across the country. It will not hire its own sales reps.

Dale, who championed a discount brokerage with RealtySellers and later partnered with for-sale-by-owner company PropertyGuys.com, says his focus at Zoocasa is now “at the other end of the spectrum. We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, traditional agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.”

Carolyn Beatty, Zoocasa’s president, says site visitors are able to search for properties “much more efficiently than they could five years ago, but when it comes to finding an agent, they are at a dead end. We believe this will be a very efficient way of getting qualified customers in front of qualified agents.”

To become part of the network, Zoocasa is encouraging sales reps to get in touch via email. “We will want a sense of your reputation as an agent, your history and expertise, and what you bring to the table,” says Beatty. “We are looking for professional agents who want to provide a full level of service to customers and also who are comfortable with the idea of being transparent.”

A key part of the website will be a “rate your agent” section – similar to the Rate Your Realtor concept that was proposed as part of CREA’s Futures Project, but voted down at the association’s Annual General Meeting last weekend.

Beattie says Rogers held a series of focus groups to determine what consumers want from the new site, and found that many asked for a section where they could read reviews of sales reps’ performance.

The CREA vote “doesn’t feel in step with the times in a service-based industry,” says Beattie. “I don’t see why agents would not want to hold up their credentials and a key part of their credibility and reputation is the service they provide to their customers.”

In addition to revamping the property search functions and introducing the referral service, Zoocasa will also offer other Rogers products for potential home buyers. “We also want to reach out and add larger national retailers,” says Beatty. “We think they will also add value back to the consumer.”
Dale says, “We are consumer focused and consumers want as much information as possible so they can make intelligent decisions.”

Dale has filed several lawsuits against the Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB) and CREA over the years relating to RealtySellers, the real estate company that was originally formed in 2000. The company offered discounted flat fee services. Some of those actions are still pending.

RealtySellers also had leave to intervene in the Competition Tribunal proceedings between the Competition Bureau and TREB that were held last fall. TREB is defending itself against a filing by the Competition Bureau claiming that it operates its MLS system using restrictive, anti-competitive practices. A decision from the tribunal is expected soon.

Beatty says that Rogers is not concerned that Dale may be unpopular with people in organized real estate.

“We looked at Lawrence’s history and his depth of knowledge in the business and we believe he brings a lot of expertise to the table, but most importantly, he really believes in this model. We think he can add a lot of value and I think any of the areas that he’s explored in the past are just that.”

She adds: “This is all about serving the customer well and we think there is a group of professional agents who will see this as a performance-based model that is much more efficient for them, in terms of the dollars they spend to acquire customers, than other marketing options.”

Referral fees are subject to negotiation, she says. To apply to be part of the network, email [email protected]


  1. Update , July 30th, 2013

    The INSANITY of what you are allowing to go on is reaching epic proportions CREA members.

    As of today Zoocasa Brokerage is the ONLY BROKERAGE in CANADA to have special access to the DDF platform from CREA. Yes, folks zoocasa.com a website now branded as copyright owned by Zoocasa Brokerage remains actually registered and receiving the ddf 3rd party feed from Point2Homes the company CREA has entrusted your listing content too.

    While I can understand the lack of expertise in this area from CREA, this is simply too easy and fact to ignore.

    Right at Home is the largest brokerage in Canada, with more paying CREA members licensed as it’s agents than any other brokerage, Yet a brokerage with 3 members, including a well know CREA legal attack artist, is getting a FREE ride from CREA.

    RE/MAX just how embarrassed are you right now!!

    Let’s see what cover up comes on this one folks.

    Are you really going to keep taking this???

    • EOTN:

      Re your question “Are you really going to keep taking this???”:

      Sadly, I think that the bulk of CREA members ‘will’ keep on taking whatever CREA dishes out to them. There doesn’t seem to be much in the way of interest or fight in them, even if there is a fleeting interest in what CREA does anymore. It seems to be the Canadian way…don’t rock the boat…it could cost us even more than it already has…best just go with the flow…and cross our fingers. CREA has the personality of the average Realtor (the less-than-five-year-amateurs) pegged it seems, as well as their revolving door bottomless-pit supply of money.

      The race to the bottom continues.

      A proprietary Information free-for-all;

      CREA chuckles as its members continuously, naively, drop the ball.

      Kind’a like the blind leading the blind;

      Into the noose of a tightening bind.

  2. Monday July 15th, 2013.

    Are your listings currently found on Zoocasa with your approval being garnered from somewhere or the other?

    If so, as of today, no matter which provincial legislation you operate under, you are currently in breach of the Competition Act. CREA has informed you of this fact over and over again, whether you have visited realtorlink and read the hard to find information is irrelevant. Changes to zoocasa.com have made this a fact of business life

    and in Ontario you remain in breach of RECO if your listings are on zoocasa.com and you are soley responsible for any penalties levied.

    • EOTN you clearly do your research and are great at identifying when there are conflicts or potential problems. And you’re likely correct in most cases, but I think the risk you identify may be way overblown. We haven’t seen court cases on the rise. We haven’t seen FSBOs backing up the courts like some have suggested through this change. And we don’t see the competition police bugging our offices or hunting us down. We’re going through change and we all have to adjust and learn.

      But if you could in plain english, tell us why our listings on Zoocasa are a breach of the competition laws and what are the risks you describe above?

      Also, if every brokerage decided they didn’t want to share their listings with third party sites, wouldn’t that render them essentially useless?

    • HWR

      As evidenced by the legal consultations held by CREA in building the by-law changes for local MLS systems and by the actual rules and regulations of the DDF, CREA has informed all 100,000 plus members of the following.

      You cannot SELECTIVELY share your listing data, for advertising and marketing purposes, with SELECT members of CREA.

      If you allow your listing to appear on any other CREA members website, you must allow it to appear on ALL CREA members websites ( now this does have a provincial component in 2 provinces also).

      So right now, If you have posted a listing on ZOOCASA.com which is now clearly a Zoocasa Brokerage site (as evidenced by the copyright disclaimer now at the bottom of Zoocasa) you must also allow ALL OTHER CREA members to display your listing.

      CREA’s legal team has already determined this is the case. This fact is well documented and referred to over and over again in the DDF info and finally it was the reason EVERY REGIONAL MLS SYSTEM IN CANADA REVISED IT’S BY-LAWS IN THE LAST 2 YEARS, simply so those regional mls systems would not be subject to Competition Bureau hearings.

      CREA sent their Legal staff to some regional systems AGMs simply to verify and support this fact, and even threatened banishment if a regional system was to refuse. RESULT all systems have complied.

      Again your TAG is in breach of CREA Trademarks and should not be used. Legally you can use “A REALTOR Hard at Work”.

  3. I am posting this at my own risk as this seems to be an unpredictable and daring thing to post here!
    First, I love competition! That is why I follow the Leafs! I love winners and admire losers. And our industry is no different.
    I will not, however make any anticompetitive comment that will jeopardize my career,my industry or my brokerage.
    So at times I feel a bit left out as I will not cut down another business model, including this new one we are discussing.
    I will make the following observations.
    1. We do currently have a method of customer satisfaction rating. It is called market share. In any given market there are leaders in market share that are there primarily because they do a better job through higher or lower fees, faster or better service and so on. So the consumer judges us with their business and it works very well.
    2. It is always interesting when a high market share company leaves the business. That must mean either the model is broken, the leader was wrong or there simply were not enough profits or revenues to make it work.
    3. The model discussed in this string is not new. Relocation companies have done this for years, as have companies such as Costco. So this is not new and we should not have any concern.
    4. When the dust settles Dale will have his name in the history of real estate as a contributor just like LePage, Polzler, Liniger, Schneider, Keller and many other astute business people in our industry. That does not make him right or wrong but it will make us look at ourselves differently. It made us make decisions, business decisions.
    5. This new model is interesting in that participating Realtors, and there will be many, will be willing to pay Rogers, or should I say Zoocasa, more than they pay their own Broker of Record. They will pay them 35% of the Gross Commission Income for a lead before their split with their broker! Now in my experience most independent contractors today are negotiating to pay less not more. The most active models today are those in the high split commission model. So I believe astute realtors will decide with their own market share whether this is worth it. Those who do not have a lead generation model will chose to participate. The most successful, with various business models to generate leads likely will not.
    6. I believe that is is imperative, in our free market system to allow all types of business models. The free market will determine which will be successful and which will fail. Needless to say, when a business closes, and I will use a non real estate example so no one believes I am making an anticompetitive statement – Kodak, that the model did not work, did not adapt and was unprofitable or unsuccessful. It’s time was over!
    7. Is it wrong for anyone to seek a lower fee model? Perhaps a great analogy on this discussion would be, should a customer consider a low cost alternative to traditional telephony companies? Is that wrong minded? Traditional telephony companies charge a bit higher fees I would suggest. There are other models. So how does our industry differ? Some consumers may wish to stay with a company for their telephone due to service, tradition, or other aspects they feel are important. Others may choose a low service, low cost model. What is wrong with that? It keeps all telephony companies on their toes.
    8. If our current model is so bad, then why are our consumers still benefiting from higher and higher prices? Why are our consumers upset because we make a relatively small profit while the Canadian economy flourishes? Why, even with a lower volume of sales or properties in Canada, are our consumers still seeing their equity increase despite challenges from our Government, banks and the competition bureau to lower the activity in our real estate market? Why are consumers upset at us and willing to pay some of the revenues in our business to a new model sponsored by an oligopoly, telephony? Frankly, the vast majority of consumers are not upset and do not even notice that there is a new entrant. They do not care. Perhaps we should follow their lead because this change is not impactive.

    Finally, it is really interesting that this string is longer than the Bible, Koran and Gone with the Wind put together. It reminds me of the discussion after the Sermon on the Mount. It was likely very loud, confusing and very opinionated!
    All the best and let’s all get back to business and show the consumer why Realtors still sell the highest market share of properties in the our real estate economy!

    • Darryl, you included polzer and schniedner, with all due respect they did not create anything new in terms of business models, they used liningers US model. You should include bartram and drukarsh as they were latest creators of new models.

  4. Just got a REFERRAL from this thread…LUV IT!…to everyone here who hides behind their secret alias, very impressive & then there is Mr. Brian Martindale ( I think your shoes are too tight )…I have NO CLUE who you are…but it is cool to know that you seem to know alot about me & then to place judegements ( I hope no one judges your children one day for having a voice ) :) How grown up is that…well…it is most certainly flattering. What a wonderful industry we work in…I find it interesting to know how much time we all have on your hands…Great thread REM! I think it is my favorite to date…even though it is the only one I have ever commented on…but it will earn me $15,000 in commissions once I sell this Referral! I should comment more! ;) vx

    • Virginnia:

      My original response to your post above got filed in Jim Adair’s special drawer of flammable materials. Jim, in his infinite wisdom, does his best to keep me reined in LOL. At least he gets a ribald driven laugh once in a while.

      My two pair of shoes fit just fine thank you. One pair is a Walmart special; the other cost me almost $60.00 at Sears! That’s $30.00 a foot!

      I wear the good ones when I drive my 1969 Oldsmobile 455 cubic incher and when I write these posts.

      I wear the Walmart specials when I drive my Honda Civic and when I read these posts.

      I’m glad that this venue has provided you with a “referral’, as you categorize it, but is not that referral actually a person, a client? You seem to zero in only on the money aspect, not even mentioning that you actually are dealing with a real live person. The person has the money. The money does not have the person. Please correct me if my perception is wrong, but your priorities seem to be focused only on persons as simply being venues to acquire money therefrom. This attitude is the epitomy of an assembly line Realtor.

      The French Foreign Legion worked on this principle, being the principle mandate of the mercenary.

      • Can’t resist, Brian… and no one knows about the Jag under wraps in the garage, saved for weekends (even the lawyers “practice” that) … rofl…. (just teasing)…

        Build it and they will come… nothing applies more to real estate than this… when we give the best of what we have in service, kindness and caring, applied knowledge learned as we “practiced” the field of endeavour, the money will come. Nothing starts with “the money” theory up front. The public is mostly not stupid… the value of a seasoned REALTOR(r) is PRICELESS! Was and will continue to be, as you are well aware.

        It’s not the starting point, never was, and never will be, and he/she who thinks so is sadly mistaken. It’s what is received for performance and service provided. And as we seasoned ones know, it only comes long after the fact of providing all we offer to the public.

        Kind of reminds me of the biblical statement about salt: salt of the earth… where, like a handshake bond is given, salt was exchanged as a method of commerce, way back when.

        Each participant took a few grains of salt from his salt sack, and put it in the other’s salt sack. Then shook the sack slightly and the two “salts” mixed, “sealing the deal,” because the nature of salt being what it is, the grains cannot be seen as individual, not separated, ever.

        Such a bond is established, even today. In our (commerce) business it’s called a contract of course, since we are not permitted by law to do business with a handshake (how sad). Maybe we should go back to the salt sacks… the “blending” of the salt could mimic co-operation in the field.

        All the talk about working for FREE is always so interesting. In theory we ALL work for free, until till closure “happens.” Often after months of marketing (marketeering sometimes), then waiting further months till closing, then the processing of the payck. Mostly by then many weeks, and often MONTHS have passed.

        THAT is not taught in real estate courses, typically, and that alone is often responsible for the failure rate among new people. They simply can’t fork over their own cash until such time as regular (non erratic) closings occur.

        No one tells them it often takes about three years to establish yourself in any given domicile, so that your name becomes a household word. You can network and advertise till you turn blue, but until a buyer or seller NEEDS your services, you will have no business to attend to. Then the “process” of hurry up and wait begins.

        Cordially as always,
        Carolyne L

      • Brian,

        Your babble is amazing. How dare you challenge someone else on how they deal with consumers, when all you are concerned about is protecting a system despite what consumers want. For example, consumers want to access information online, yet you insult realtors who want to give consumers what they want. You also insult the competition bureau for trying to give consumers what they want. I guess it is you who were only in it for the money, to force consumers to use you as an agent to get information and too scared to simply compete on your services. Of course Virginia is in it for the money, so whats so bad about that? If no one was into their jobs for money, they would join the peace corp! All realtors are trying to make money. Some like Virginia are successful and wear fancy shoes, and some like you who just were not up to the cut wear shoes from Walmart and Sears. I would rather have an agent with fancy shoes than shoes from Walmart any day!

        • Hi Joe:

          Thank you for thinking that my babble is amazing; I try to do my best at everything.

          You miss my point entirely. I do not defend the “system” as it is set up at all. If you have been a regular reader of REMonline over the last few years and if you have a good memory you will realize that I in fact do not like the “system” as maintained by CREA, OREA etc, whereby most Realtors in the field on any given day are part of the revolving door here today–gone tomorrow types. The surviving minority therefore consist of two types of personalities, being the money chasers and the professionals. In my opinion the professionals form the minority within the minority, and it is those personalities of the double minority’s interests that I defend.

          I will insult anyone/any organization that wants the privately owned, developed and paid for on an ongoing basis (MLS data), fruits of someone else’s (Realtors’) labours for their own unearned use. I have no problem insulting thieves, whether backed by the Competition Bureau or not. You sound like you belong to the ever-increasing-in-numbers socialistically-minded “Entitlement Brigade”. You want everything for free.

          People with character as the backstop to their personalities don’t expect anything and everything of value to be handed to them on a silver platter, for free. Free stuff has no intrinsic value; it is sluffed off by the recipient without thoughts of where it came from, or where it is ultimately going to end up.

          By your words you do not have a firm grasp of what is being discussed herein. By taking my own shoe analogy seriously you reveal yourself to be a typically naive consumer who believes any and all of the hype driven negativity directed at Realtors by those who seek to profit from said Realtors’ privately owned and paid for data base via socialistically aligned government agency (Competiton Bureau) threats of $10,000,000. Administrative Monetary Penalties, which are unconstitutional by the way.

          You seem to belong to that misguided group that wants to throw the baby out with the dirty bath water.

          I just want to throw out the dirty water.

          Your amazing babbler,


    • Classic mistake…counting the chickens before they hatch. Exactly the type that zoocasa is looking for.

  5. Aoocasa is pleased to announce that TREB has launched the Buyer Registry Service, just days after Zoocasa Brokerage has announced it will be joining TREB.

    Zoocasa and Lawerence Dale are SURE to utilize the BRS to it’s utmost potential. Now when clients acknowledge the click wrap agreement on zoocasa their names will be automatically entered into the TREB BRS database and any TREB member who ever contacts those Buyers while the BRS is in effect will be violating TREB and RECO both.

    “I am so pleased TREB has once again given us another tool to allow us to ensure our Zoocasa Referral Service is a guaranteed success. Without the support of TREB entering the Buyer Agency side of what REALTORS do we were stuck with only using their listings. Now we can use this new exciting service.” ” No we have no fear of our limited representation agreements being included in the registry because we already have support for limited representation listing agreements through TREB. If TREB now tries to stop us we will simply file a new CB complaint.”

    “We are now praying that every other board in Ontario starts their own BRS so we can build are business quicker in their markets” a Zoocasa spokesman said. “In a dream world CREA would start a national BRS and post buyers directly on BRS.ca like they did mls.ca (now realtor.ca). We are waiting for that day at Zoocasa.”

    TREB members, are you going to allow an ill conceived, membership harmful BRS to actually be up and running. Have they communicated what legal obligations you will quickly find yourself under in the coming months when your are found to be working with a client who previously registered.

    Oh Yah and the requirement for a signature on the BRA. Forget that as it is clearly Anti-competitive towards online Brokers and in direct opposition to the norm for the internet today.

    You guys are in deep deep doo doo if this BRS goes live.

  6. Joe Consumer is bang on, but what he doesn’t see is the dramatic change that’s going on and its bound to stir a lot of emotion. True Lawrence Dale was a key contributor to change that was long overdue, and he was backed by the very powerful competition bureau, so change was a given.

    Take a look at the facts;

    The results he’s had from a business perspective have essentially failed. The only real success he’s had is in suing TREB, that’s conveniently made him rich. This venture is no different. It will ultimately fail because like his other ventures there is no true benefit to the consumer.

    By owners accessing MLS may be considered a success and it is, but it has benefitted few home owners. By owner companies list to sell ratio has improved but continues to be brutal and there’s no proof that anyone has saved any money. We see only the best homes on comfree and property guys selling and many of those, if properly represented, should have sold for much more.

    What about the 60-70% that don’t sell. Have they saved anything? They never discuss the large majority that go unsold, but from the numbers that can be seen on MLS, its safe to say that 60-70% of their homes don’t sell and weKve seen nothing to say otherwise.

    Also, its important to note that these companies say they will help with pricing…but only after you’ve spent your $1200. They don’t want experienced Realtors involved because if they challenge sellers to price realistic, they may not list. That’s a potential 60-70% loss in income for a large corporation like Power Corp out of Quebec. Ask them how their list to sell ratio is compared to working with an experience Realtor.

    In fact, if you add up the fees lost by sellers who have failed to sell using one of these large for sale by owner companies. And add the the money lost by home owners who didn’t properly understand their homes true marrket value, especially through 2008-2011, and you’d see that these companies have actually injured Canadian home owners.

    And don’t forget, the majority of these homes are ultimately sold by Realtors anyway.

    This should be the real story that Canadians hear, because noone is talking about the majority of by owners who don’t sell and their losses in fees and equity by sitting unrealistically priced through the good markets.

    I’ve seen sellers sell too quickly and for much less than they should have in 2007, and I’ve seen sellers sitting on the market while the market fell out from under them losing thousands of dollars through the recession. Who’s counting that money?

    The intention by Dale might be good. And the perception by the public might be good as well, but the model itself is and has been proven to be flawed and its driven by someone seeking profit rather than someone seeking to benefit consumers.

    Change is good and Realtors have failed in this department. But Dale has taken such an extreme off center position and he fails to understand that this system is and always will be a Realtor first system. He’s tried to cut the Realtor out completely and now is trying to ride on the backs of Realtors? That can only hurt him.

    The top 5% Realtors doing 80% of the business don’t need Dale or Rogers. That stat alone leaves them fighting for crumbs and if you add fees coming down and fewer Realtors hurts their chances even more.

    So as good as Dale and Rogers might look in the media, ultimately the direction they have taken is more self serving than it is consumer driven and consumers will ultimately determine how succesful they are.

    • HWR,

      From what I was told, your 5% doing 80% of the business is way off base. In fact, I am told that Michael Polzer published a letter in REM in 2010 and quoted some interesting stats-1 in 5 TREB members did not do a deal in 2009 and 50% of agents did 4 or fewer deals the whole year. What was also found is that about 50% of the business is actually done agents who do 5 or fewer deals a year-that shows that your “profession” is not a profession after all and the most deals are done by people who could not possibly be considered “professionals”. Check your numbers before you put them forward as facts!

      • Exactly joe! The point you made is the same as my own, the majority of Realtors are doing virtually nothing. So those that are, are doing a lot! And those that are doing a lot don’t need crappy referals from Rogers. Lastly, with change going on well beyond your “I just read a blog grasp” what’s left over is very little. And often of the lower quality.

        By the way, every Boards numbers are different but you couldn’t possibly have read that blog, and the averages are pretty consistent. With the numbers to qualify made available and many Boards awarding their top 5% its easy to see this common trend. For instance, in my Board the top 5% actually do more than 80% of the overal business, and as part of that group since my second year I don’t have time to waste on leads that don’t meet my standards or the patience to hope that one might.

  7. On reviewing the registration and keeping up with the news, Michael Lafontaine has been made Broker of Record of Zoocasa, not Lawrence Dale.

    What do you think about that?

    • M Lafontaine and L Dale both have RYREE scores that could only max out at under 29.

      Marny Smith is rated between 70-79 and could break 80.

      I think Zoocasa should have chosen to offer Marny the ROR offer.

    • If you mean rate your realtor rating, he is a 10 out of 10 at least if the rating is done by consumers. He forced the changes to this backward thinking self protecting indusrty which has ingored the consumer for decades. You forget its us, the consumer, who pays you, and your actions over the past several years, or at least the actions and words of people like you, continue to show a complete contempt for the consumer. Shame on you and good for him.

      • Sorry Joe. You have to actually touch peoples lives for them to actually care enough to rate you. Now that comment will likely pass you by simply because you don’t possess an understanding of what it means or where it comes from. From comments like the ones you made here and from your previous posts, I’ve learned that your a shoot first ask later type a fella. The polar opposite to Martindale but with the same approach and that erodes your credibility.

  8. Date Jan 1st 2014.
    Press Release:

    “Zoocasa Home Match Service” launches in Canada.

    Hey Canada, are you looking to buy or sell your home? Why pay for costly MLS services or high commission fees when we can match Buyers and Sellers up for only $9.99 per month and your first month is FREE with NO Risk or Obligation!!

    Simply enter your details and Zoocasa, Canada’s #1 real estate marketing platform, will match you up with homes or buyers that meet your criteria. You are then FREE to contact your Matches via the Zoocasa Secure Chat window or email service.

    Hey, if people are now finding Love online, why can’t they find their next home the same way.

    Forget REMAX or Royal Lepage or realtor.ca because they want to pass you on to one of their sales reps and that is something like asking your Grand Mother to approve your next date. Zoocasa is independent with only one goal, making sure your Home Match is the best one for you.

    Using Zoocasa’s simple Buyer Limited Representation, NO Obligation, click wrap agreement, we will register your name with TREB and CREA on their new Buyer registry services, to ensure you no longer can be solicited for Buyer services. If you decide at a later date to use an agent Zoocasa automatically releases you from any obligations as you equally release Zoocasa.

    Want More??? Zoocasa will even give you a FREE Rogers Phone with builtin Zoocasa HomeMatch Service built in for 3 months, if you simply agree to watch a 10 sec ad attached to any txt HomeMatch alert.

    There is ONLY one way to stop Zoocasa or Shaw or Bell from wiping your business out folks. It’s Called the DDF and you better get learning asap!!!!!

    The Franchise systems cannot help you because they represent their franchisees, who themselves are limited by provincial legislation. You and ONLY You can protect your business.

    • AEL

      There are little known things in Canada known as l
      LAWs, passed in places called LEGISLATURES….

      Surprise. They decide that those who wish to sell or trade in Real Estate must take prescribed courses, take exams, pass exams, apply for licences go through various checks , get licences and then sell real estate.

      Those that don’t follow those steps and trade in real estate anyway are breaking the LAWs.

      You can be fined large amounts of money for not following that sequence……

      I guess you just couldn’t follow the rules and are angry at those who could!

      Those ‘loudmouths’ are following the Laws!

      • Marny,

        You are confusing rules passed by Legislatures as you note and arbitrary rules passed by boards to protect status quo.

  9. This is completely a non issue guys. Sure Rogers is a large company with plenty of marketing clout, but this has been done before and failed. Rogers has chosen a poorly thought out direction, likely its heavily based on Dale’s input, and by choosing Dale himself they’ve set themselves back tremendously, especially when this model will rely heavily on Realtor participation.

    Homevalues.ca I believe it was proved that the leads generated were poor and fact is, Realtor.ca is the number one site period. Whether we like its functionality or not, that can be improved. FSBO companied using Realtor.ca has actually cemented the MLS as the go to place for buyers mrendering site number two or three virtually irrelivent.

    Poor leads going to desperate and inexperienced leads will result in virtually zero success. That doesn’t even include the fact that sellers are gravitating to companies offering reduced fees, which is all companies whether you admit it or not, and with a smaller pie to share the Rogers model will be smokless cigarette of the tabacco industry.

    What surprises me most is that a company like Rogers would simply jump on the wagon with someone who’s only real success was getting media attention. True he impacted the real estate industry but the competition bureau was intent on doing that anyway.

    The reaction here does prove how fearful we are of change though. It also proves that our industry is no longer in denial about the significance of this change and reality is, the future of our industry will be one with less members. Sad for those who have to go, but good for consumers and our industry.

    We’re only getting better.

    • Hi HWR

      I think you are right. Sometimes we are frightened of progress and innovation, frightened that we will be left behind.

      But I don’t think we are frightened when an idea which failed in the past is brought forward again to be retried, especially by people who would hire Lawrence Dale to run it for them.

      Rogers is a non issue! In the past large companies such as Canada Trust, Canada Permanent Trust, Royal Trust, Montreal Trust, AE Lepage etc, etc, etc had much of the same model, but with a twist.

      They went to large corporations such as IBM, Pitney Bodes, RBC, BNS and on and on ….and offered their services as relocation companies, provided funds to make things move smoothly, provided advice, Realtors, area information etc. They each had long lists of companies that were under contract only to them. And they had access to all of the historical data that zoocasa/rogers has expressed such a need for.

      Most agents worked for these companies and were happy to pay a 25% referral fee to their company as well as the companies own portion leaving the agent with the smallest amount.

      Put the information on a computer, send it in a well bound book….either way doesn’t really matter. Companies had their listings on the web in the early eighties, as Stephen would say, back in the age of convertibles and tank tops………

      But where are those large Real Estate companies today, where are their long client lists…………Gone.

      Agents learned that they could refer between each other and avoid the middle men.

      Relationship referrals are the strongest referrals you can get. Someone you trust referring you to someone they trust…… does that sound like a Rogers referral.

      It was always fun to tell the relocation company that the couple they were looking for was sitting in my office. Personally we can get far better referrals. It only requires that we be very good at our jobs and have the welfare of our clients at the top of our list.

      And for all of you marketing people I spent $Zero.00 on advertising each and every year. My long distance phone bill was, however, very heavy.

      House values.CA tried. But Rogers has a bigger name, technology to give away, and the thing THEY THINK they needed most, historical data. Some will join, especially those who haven’t already given their money to the companies that preceded them.

      It will be a source of an extra deal or two for a borderline agent. Maybe a few more to someone with experience. But even in the past when leads were handed out in an office, many agents still couldn’t put a deal together or sell a listing.

      Clients will get frustrated, they will expect competence, and if it is not forthcoming they will move on. Even easier if Zoocasa has a buyer agency with an out with no penalty.

      As an aside, in my opinion Buyer Agency’s should be scrapped or given a maximum term of 2 weeks. If you can’t keep your client without a contract it says something about you.

      And if Rogers had hired someone I respected I might have thrown my name in the pot to see the end result, but I have to question the management ability and goals when they make such a choice.

      Wishing well to all who join……looking forward to Monday morning quarterbacking in two years.

  10. Anyone gotten any official communication on Zoocasa from their Board, Associations or Franchisor????? It’s been 2 weeks folks?

    How many of you have called any of the above?

    • My brokerage…(a very large one) is considering what this all may mean. Nothing more at this point. Truthfully there is so much going on right now with this and CREA, OREA and the local boards that it is a lot to digest for many.

  11. 2167961 Ontario Inc, has been registered in Ontario with RECO

    Sales Reps include:
    Lawerence Dale
    Diane Marhan

    Brokers include:
    Mike LaFontaine

    Broker of Record:
    Not Listed

    A simple google search on 2167961 Ontario Inc., reveals much needed info about the company and is a must read for any agent or brokerage looking to do business with them.

    Wonder how the issue of the injunction C-21 has against them will be dealt with across the Country. I guess $100,000’s of more dollars into lawyers pockets from CREA?

  12. AEL, Peter and Virginnia Munden:

    Your counterpoints are noted and are actually appreciated by me, and I am sure, by PED and Carolyne as well, for it gives us reasons to respond from perspectives of deep down concern concerning the direction(s) that the real estate industry is seemingly headed in.

    You must understand that PED’s, Carolynes, and others’ of “our group”, as AEL refers to them/us, have an altruistic foundation for their beliefs vs a mercenary one owned by the majority who only see being a Realtor as a way to make big bucks. That is why PED, Carolyne and others routinely post on this site. The majority don’t care enough to read REM or to express themselves herein; they just can’t be bothered. Therefore, it is the communal mercenary mindset of Realtors who do not care about being a Realtor beyond their next paycheques that is the real problem with the real estate business.

    I have met PED, Carolyne and many others who weigh in on this site, and I can tell you that they care very much about the welfare of consumers vis a vis their interactions with Realtors, else why would they routinely leave themselves open to attacks from those who obviously by their own vacuous words do not know nearly as much about the innards of this business on this site? Ped’s, Carolyne’s et al and my main concern regarding consumers is education; educating consumers (Realtors even)against the pitfalls of dealing with mercenaries who only see one thing important whilst operating as a Realtor…generating megabucks.

    I have a problem with the team concept for the above reason. As soon as one delegates one’s fiduciary duties to another, being a team member, one sluffs off one’s personal responsibility to one’s client in pursuit of further profits. A dilution of responsibility then takes place; one loses control of one’s personal contractual promise of fiducuary responsibility in favour of one’s trusting client in the name of piggy-backed profits, or, as I like to label it…greed. Sorry Virginia, but that is my altruistically driven opinion.

    Some may wonder why it is that I, a retired Realtor (since December 31, 2011) continue to involve myself on this site. The answer is very simple. Like PED, Carolyne and others of “our group”, “our group” being a collection of people who actually care about what goes on out there beside how much money we make, I have been around numerous tracks many times over the decades, and I have seen it all, unlike many who post herein and who simply defend their own shallow positions from mercenary sales numbers perspectives. I feel that it is my duty to point put certain things as they relate to the ongoing turbulence within ORE, and sometimes I simply lose patience with some who obviously do not know what they are talking about, but who naively feel that they do. Rarely do most of my personal detractors come back at me with anything other than biased thinking without actual empirical backup. These people make easy pickings for me when I decide to challenge them based upon experience. Unfortunately, I sometimes allow myself to become too aggresive with my counter attacks, because at those times I don’t like the personality types that I perceive as coming through via their words.

    My motives herein are the motives of one who cares about consumers and about really good real estate practitioners. I have no skin in the game, hence you may rest assured that my opinions stem from concern for the good guys/gals ‘only’, as I perceive them to be. Rogers, Zoocasa, Dale and money-grubbing wannabe Realtors are not the good guys in my opinion. The good guys are always in the minority, and thus, are always the subject of attacks by the majority, at least by those who actually read REM, the only national publication whereby information about the real estate vocation is regularly circulated.

    Ignore this chat forum? I don’t think so.

    I challenge you guys/gals to post an online petition to request Jim Adair, REM’s Editor in Chief, to ban PED, Carolyne, me and “our group” from this site. If your side gets a 50% plus one vote I will gladly withdraw my comments and spend that “wasted” time doing other things that positively affects me personally from thence onward. I don’t need to deal with crap.

    Yours truly,

    One of your unfavourite Three Stooges.

    • Thank you Brian, for your vote of confidence. As to the team concept and endless business models, I have always felt and still do, that there’s room for everyone. Whatever works, that’s what the people involved should do, putting forward their own best foot.

      For some the team approach works, not so for others. It takes volumes of “time” to “manage a team.” The team doesn’t function on its own. Much time is spent by the team leader “managing his or her team,” and they often find themselves with the management role being the greatest undertaking they deal with in a day, rather than actual client one on one relationship procedures. Whatever works, works.

      If that appeals to an agent, by all means; I would never criticize. I just decided that it wasn’t the route I wanted to persue. Agents often receive wonderful client-reports. I certainly am not the only one.

      Here within quotes I’ve copied and pasted part of a testimonial that appears at “Carolyne’s Clients Speak.” These sorts of commentaries, money can’t buy. btw – all the other agents interviewed apparently charged remarkably less. The property sold in just days, in a dead market with three offers, and was initially, by some colleagues, thought to be over-priced. Sometimes the public has their own opinion about team-spirit, and in this case (a retired bank vice president) put it in writing (only in part):

      “As you know, prior to asking you to represent us, J.,.,., and I interviewed several other “high profile” agents who all promised to do great things, but upon further questioning, it became quite apparent that they could not match your personalized approach and often handed off their clients to underlings during the sale process. To us, that method had the potential for some serious miscommunication and we simply weren’t interested.

      We will (and already have) refer you to our friends and neighbours who may be considering selling their homes because we are so confident in your abilities. Thank you again for your guidance, expertise and understanding.” (J & D K)

      I wish the FSBO agents all the blessings in the world. Some of them work very very hard and just like the rest of us, sometimes it becomes a productive effort and other times not. The greatest message that the public needs to hear over and over and over again is that “we” take ALL the risk and bear the financial burden that goes with the territory. If the property happens not to sell (thankfully that doesn’t happen very often) we simply don’t get paid or reimbursed for our expenditure trying to make it happen.

      There’s so much more to the business than commonly meets the eye. And that’s what our industry people in the glass-ceiling’d corner offices need to message the world on our behalf. It’s a wonderful industry and a wonderful business. There is really no need for all the negativity that has fed the media and kept the presses running selling news.

      Carolyne L

  13. I would simply ask if the real Lawrence Dale would stand up and one more thing is CREA in the house or are they still using our money to pay off the last law suit, I can’t imagine the Competition not having eyes on this one, but then again maybe not.

  14. What you CAN do to make yourselves heard:

    1) Call Rogers to cancel your Rogers services, all of them. inform them to note the reason as ‘Zoocasa’. Better yet, find out who your Rogers Rep is and call/email them. Every company has one Rogers rep. Just ask.

    2) Call your brand head office and ask them about how they are planning to protect your value. They may have their limitations on what they can do publicly but they surely have a the PULL in private. Imagine the head of big brand calling head of Rogers

    3) Call RECO and inform them about your displeasure – again know that they may not be able to stop but can surely ‘hear your grievance’. Better yet, have your clients call RECO and question value and need for service like zoocasa and how it will benefit them. HIGHLIGHT the fact that Lawrence Dale has been involved with FSBOs etc

    4) Call your TREB rep and ask questions. Tell your Broker how you feel about Zoocasa.

    5) You don’t have to take the call from Zoocasa. They’re going to need your support to make this work (they will not hire agents) – Tell at least 5 of your realtor friends and ask them to spread the word. (Viral – offline)

    Thing is, this may be good or may just happen despite… at least let Zoocasa work for it and not make it easy.

  15. Wow, you guys must be Realtors and how fitting that any consumer has to just see this thread and solidify what media keeps saying about Real Estate people. We want to be seen and treated as “professionals” almost considering ourselves specialists and foolishly comparing ourselves with doctors, lawyers and accountants. Yet, we will chose to lash out and fight and get personal on a public forum. Lets just stop being so immature.

    Don’t you think this is exactly what Lawrence Dale/ROGERS/Zoocasa wants from us and makes us easy pickings. I don’t see much issue with Virginia’s post, at least not to the extent that deserved to be taken apart in the way it was. But then, that is exactly what plagues this industry.

    There is NO ONE who looks after ANY ONE. Agents expect from Brokers, Brokers expect from Brands, and collectively we all expect from Associations, CREA et al… but no one delivers because everyone’s in it for their own selves. Don’t be kidding.

    If you love the Real Estate industry – be afraid and very afraid of Rogers/Zoocasa. We’ve gotta act unified in our quest to keep the industry professional, with personal relationship touch. Make no mistake, there are other companies, corporates who are waiting on the sidelines to see if Rogers is successful. Once they are, guess what – we will pay through our nose to buy leads. So there is an ‘external threat’ if you guys can get your heads out of the sand and look out!!

    Just sayin’

  16. Good Morning friends, colleagues, partners…

    First of all blessings for a wonderful Easter Holiday with your family.

    Secondly, as of today, Reco has yet to approve ZOOCASA…yay…

    OUR BUSINESS is about PEOPLE, not PROPERTIES and it is the foundation of our business module at http://www.waynemunden.com at RE/MAX LEGACY serving OAKVILLE, MISSISSAUGA, BURLINGTON, BRAMPTON, HAMILTON and the GTA…sorry shamelss plub… :)

    You gotta luv real estate, the so called real estate experts and those that have no time to actively work the business and SERVE PEOPLE…yet have so much time to comment to posts as this and other wasteless chats that show up on the net especially on FACEBOOK…as Realtors posting nonsense about SIGNS being left out, complaining that TOO MANY SIGNS are USED for OPEN HOUSES, posting PICS of SIGNS taken with smartphones…OMG…USELESS & TASTELESS…ARE WE NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK WITH ONE ANOTHER to achieve CLIENT SUCCESS…what happened to COLLABORATION amongst colleagues…COOPERATION within an industry that I so luv to work in. What do you feel your comments achieve on these and other forums…a waste of time personally…leave Rogers and Dale to do their jobs. If they want to compete with us, allow them. I am not worried at all. If you have your VALUE PROPOSTION strategically in place, you will excel and most importantly your CLIENTS will EXCEL. I do not agree with the ROGERS/ZOOCASA business module but attacking people & modules is not what we do best. SERVING PEOPLE is the WORK we do…SERVING THE INDUSTRY the BEST we can is our ROLE as PROFESSIONALS.

    RELATIONSHIPS are the only way to procure LEADS based on your current success and statistics in your local markets. Our RELATIONSHIPS will help us to achieve 200 homes SOLD in 2013…no LEAD GENERATION has ever helped us procure a client but being ACTIVE and OUT THERE has. So what is the point here…the point I am trying to make is BE ACTIVE. Play an active role as a PROFESSIONAL REALTOR in your COMMUNITY and you will never have to worry about ROGERS/ZOOCASA…or any other on – line module again. PEOPLE DON’T BUY PEOPLE…therefore should NOT BUY LEADS…get out there and work your business. Yes, 93% of BUYERS are on line and 75% of SELLERS are on line, but you still have to win them over with your PLAN in PLACE to help them achieve their desired results. So, What is your STRATEGY, What is your VALUE PROPOSTION, What are your RESULTS…do you have your TOP 10 REASONS to use your services memorized…???

    To protect ourselves from RECO complaints of any knd…my suggestion is to stay off these CHATS and concentrate on creating the best value propostion ever…go to where your buyers and sellers are and build RELATIONSHIPS, build a BUSINESS. Actively chatting on forums is doing nothing for your business nor for THE BUSINESS? Engaging negatively and creating noise is doing nothing for the industry…I find people talk but don’t do…so my suggestion is to get off your asses and go sell homes. That is why you became a Professional Realtor in the first place…

    For anyone who would like to join me along with Sam McDadi and Kevin Larose at THE MISSISSAUGA REAL ESTATE BOARD on April 3rd we will be sharing ways to empower you and your business and how to stay away from the noise on – line world and really just concentrate on the business. Connect with Lisa McDonald and Jay Shearer at MREB for your reserved seating.

    Again, a blessed EASTER WEEKEND with your families.

    Luv, vx ( better known as the SHOE luvin realtor! ;) )

    • Virginia, you wrote 598 words to come on here and tell us that we should not be on “wasteless (sic) chats.”

      Reading that reminded me of what my Newfie friend who loved to say, “lard tundering by, she’s a some vex, wit sheself”

      I’ll restate your post to ensure I understand it correctly, if that’s okay with you Virginia.

      You who told us not to attack others denounce us as “so called experts” posting “nonsense” whose comments “waste time.”

      You advise we stay off chat forums, yet you speak of what is on the net and facebook and pepper your post with chat slang such as: “yay; gotta; luv; OMG; Pics; luvin.”

      You complain about us complaining.

      You claim to not agree with the Rogers/Zoocasa model, yet you’re happy they’re not yet registered; scream that non-remonline commentators posting pictures elsewhere are useless and tasteless; proclaim that people talk but don’t do; demand we get off our asses, and yet you charge us with “engaging negatively”

      You want to show us how to stay from the noise of the “on-line world” yet, you’ve used on-line formatting to scream out at least 50 words.

      At least you are taking your advice to “get out there and work your business” with you admission of a “shamelss (sic) plub (sic)” to recruit for your team.

      Something tells me few if any posters in here will be attending your “shamelss (sic) plub (sic)” because not only do we not know what a “shamelss (sic) plub (sic)” is, your Gordon Ramsay rant just might be how you address and alienate your would-be recruits.

      If you’re going to preach against something, it’s better you not engage in that something.

      And a happy Spring Equinox with bounty to your crops to you:


      Tthe two shoes at a time wearing REALTOR.

      • PED – just can’t resist. Priceless post!!! Points certainly well-taken…
        SHOES: Reminded me of the story of the man who complained about shoes, until he met the man who had no feet…
        Love the Nfld reference. EH? as they say in ON… rofl.

        I think there is a good possibilty that the poster (I have no idea who she is) knows more about the “net” than many of us. Education learned by ‘participating?’ perhaps.

        We truly are judged by the company we keep. Often check out who is friends with whom. Sometimes it speaks volumes.

        Happy Easter. Be blessed.
        Carolyne L

    • Virginia:

      You think that folks who participate herein are engaging in “…wasteless chats…”? “Our business is about PEOPLE, not PROPERTIES…” you say? “What do you feel your comments achieve on these and other forums…a waste of time really…”. Really?

      “Wasteless chatting” might best be defined in my book as blathering on about the latest goings on in daytime TV soaps. Most folks who participatre herein are actually discussing the pros and cons of their livelihoods…hardly “wasteless chatting”.

      Real estate ‘is’ about properties, first and foremost, from the ‘consumer’s’ point of view. But most important from the standpoint of ‘Realtors’, being a professional real estate artist (it is an art) is about how one navigates amongst the varying personalities that own, or who want to own, said real estate, that is, ‘after’ one becomes proficient with the relevent real estate related knowledge base and psychology of buyers and sellers required to become a professional Realtor in the first place.

      Why did you “waste” your time commenting herein?

      I know why. You are trying to do the same thing everyone else is trying to do herein, and that is that you are trying to influence others to see things your way. Do you think that you ‘wasted’ your time doing that?

      There is a lot to be said for those who just keep putting their heads down, willfully keeping their blinders adjusted straight ahead only, and dumbly plodding ahead as if nothing is going on around them that could negatively affect their and their clients’ quality of life. They are dependable, accepting workhorses…like the horses in George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”.

      There is a very impressive Realtor who is currently being featured in this “waste-of-time” publication, as you might describe it, who very generously gives of her valuable time spreading goodness amongst young school children. Erin has my vote as the Realtor having her heart in the right place. I’ll bet that she is not known for how many pairs of shoes she owns.

      • Virginnia:

        Follow up to my March 29, 10:44 p.m. post.

        I checked out both Erin Henry’s and your Munden Team’s websites.

        Here is my wasted decision:

        Erin’s is classy;

        Yours is brassy.

        Erin’s knows where to stop;

        Yours is over-the-top.

        In addition…

        One wears shoes to promote good feet and good health;

        Shoes are made for walking, not flaunting your wealth.

        Erin’s article reveals a person with substance who cares;

        Your words reveal a hypester who blusters and blares.

        You invoke Easter to tie your self-promoting can to;

        Proclaimers say they will, while some humbly, quietly, just do.

        I realize that I have just wasted my time herein, but what the hell, I don’t often get the chance to reply to someone who wastes ‘her’ time trying to live up to Imelda Marcos’ podiatric standards.

        No wonder you need a team.

    • PED, Carolyn, Brian and the rest of your group,

      You are definitely three peas in a pod. You profess your own words as gospel and criticize anyone who dares not to agree 100% with your foolish views of the world.

      What is amazing, is that Virginia was essentially on “your side”, yet because she has some views of her own, you lash out.

      If anyone looks at your posts they will see s theme-a group of loud mouths who have little knowledge about the real issues they are talking about and even less knowledge about the laws of the land that apply to a particular situation. The last time I checked the only parties regarding these issues who have been accused of “breaking laws” were TREB and CREA.

      The real estate industry for decades has operated that anyone who takes a series of courses and gets licensed and then pays a fee to join a real estate can operate-what right to you people think you have to decide who gets to operate a business or not or what type of business they can operate. You should all pack up your bags and go to some third world country run by a dictator and see if you all can get jobs as heads of commerce. In Canada, we have free enterprise and competition and laws that protect people from people like you.

      It is people like you who give the real estate industry a bad name. Any consumer reading your posts reinforces the notion that our indsutry is a bunch of babbling fools trying to protect their own turf at all costs, legal or otherwise, because of a fear of being exposed.

      Good agents like Virginia may not like new competition, but she is part of the rare few that actually has something tangible to offer to a consumer and compete with any new model that may come along.

      As far as the shoes, she has earned the right to be known as the Shoe luvin realtor. Don’t be jealous though, there is an appropriate name for the three of you-“The Three Stooges”.

      • AEL, what the heck is your post about?

        What issues?

        Accused of breaking laws?

        What side of mine was she taking?

        Did you see anywhere stated in my posts that I don’t agree with the Rogers/Zoocasa model, as is Virginia’s position?

        Was it stated in any of my posts that I am happy that they’ve not yet been granted brokerage registration as is Virginia’s position?

        In fact AEL, which of Virginia and me spoke to working with each other on the one hand while pointedly not agreeing with Rogers/Zoocasa’s model?

        You’re either making things up AEL or trying to prosecute a position you’ve not properly interpreted. Do tell which it is, I’m all eyes.

      • Dear “AEL” (I wish you well, whoever you are ???) Often forum copy, not unlike email, is so devoid of emotion… can’t see the eyes, the raised eyebrows, the lilt of the voice, the timing (iambic pentameter – *** beats to the bar – cadence) It would be so good to show yourself from behind the veil. btw ~ I, too, love shoes but that topic has nothing to do with real estate, lol. Lighten up.

        Thank you for taking time to enlighten some of us you have grouped together… honoured to be considered part of the “enlightened” to whom you refer …

        Perhaps if you have time in your own busy schedule you’d take the opportunity to read the unsolicited material at “Carolyne’s Clients Speak,”
        http://www.carolyne.com/awards.html#speaks and perhaps enjoy and read up on some of the articles penned and contributed to the industry over the years on the Net…

        I was pleased, recently, to receive… Karen, who also believes in networking, wrote, totally unsolicited, and not having communicated in more than twenty years (in part):

        I always remember your impetuous drive and motivation. But above all, your knowledge and insight into real estate that many did not understand to their downfall. I silently was a true follower… ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

        And then added:
        I love to read your columns in REM more so because I know who you are. I just read your comments in the latest issue. Realtors understanding of why these changes are all coming about scares me. Very few seem to understand the complete effect CREAS changes will have upon us. Others don’t seem to care and the rest live under a rock!! A very sad situation
        for the retention of value to the consumer and to the industry. Many are so short sighted… Can’t see the forest for the trees! If many don’t wake up soon… We’ll all be sorry.

        I’ve also seen your gourmet recipes… You are quite the chef!
        Realtors are a different bunch of creatures. Jealously seems to dominate and drive them. I was always envious of your success and wanted to be so
        much like you. I admired your success and hard work and how you stood out amongst the others. You are one of a kind!!! There are many that would love to be just like you. Success comes with hard work… To bad
        more realtors don’t try that… “Everything comes to he who waits, if he works hard while he waits”. Some can work hard but not smart…you had both! ~ Karen Lewkowicz in Tillsonburg ~ Thanks, Karen – obviously there are those such as “AEL” who disagree ;)

        LOL – Of course we don’t know who he/she is, so it really doesn’t matter, but does make for curiosity when someone makes comments but hides behind an acronym “pen-name.”

        Carolyne L

      • AEL, you know I quite enjoyed Virginia’s post. Then I read the posts of PED, Carolyne, and Brian and thought that they had some valid points as well. I think (my opinion) that something may have been lost in translation in Virginia’s post as I did not think she was actually attacking ideas posted here but rather much of what goes on in various groups and forums on the web ….hence her FaceBook reference. I am a little concerned with the personal attacks mind you, and the worst of which was yours AEL! I encourage Viginia to post here and other places as well as the others on here, and ask that we all leave the personal attacks out of it. I have, and hope to continue to learn from all of you especially “EOTN”. AEL yours was the only post that I didn’t learn anything from, but I was reminded of unfortunate past experiences with hateful people. I sincerely hope you contribute something more in the future…or nothing at all!

    • Hi Virginia

      I like your relationship model and have expressed similar thoughts elsewhere on this site.

      Rogers is what it is, not a problem for those at work.

      Most of us would not have commented on this article if someone we respected had been made Broker of Record of Zoocasa. It is an interesting business model, and its success or lack thereof will depend on the follow through just as yours does.

      There are many reasons why some of us have time to comment….. I am on a leave of absense for health reasons.

      There are many reasons why we comment, and I would hope even you have taken the time because you believe you are adding something.

      Zoocasa is here to stay, let’s all get back to work.

  17. Rogers reminds me of a high-risk auto Insurance company (PAFCO) that I worked for as a national warranty adjuster back in the 90’s. It was bought out by a U.S. outfit shortly after I left, and was subsequently wound up.

    PAFCO had an on-staff fellow whose only job it was, was to dream up creative insurance products to sell to the public. The company strayed away from its money-making core business of high risk insurance policies, and got into the extended warranty business (automobiles, electronics, appliances etc.) which is why it hired me when an additional body was requird to keep up with expanding business requirements. But the major reason that the vice president (who I had known since he was a teenager) wanted me on board was to assist in PAFCO’s efforts to horn in on the new home warranty business which was (still is) controlled in Ontario via the government mandated monopolistic Ontario New Home Warrant Program (now TARION Corp.). I had been a conciliator with O.N.H.W.P. for a number of years previous to my engagement with PAFCO, and had the contacts necessary to appeal to the Toronto Home Builders Association and its members, which I did, culminating in a general meeting at the T.H.B.A. office’s meeting room with a huge crowd on hand. It was obvious that the T.H.B.A. and all of the builders wanted a competitive warranty program, and that I was the glue that would help to stick it all together. But there was a problem.

    PAFCO had an idea regarding how it would administer the warranty and claims which was untenable. The creative minds at PAFCO believed that the warranty could be administered from behind a desk over the phone, by sending out building inspectors, appraisers etc. on a contractual, arm’s-length pay-per-file basis to inspect warranty issues within new homeowners’ homes. I told them that this idea would never work, that PAFCO needed an in house force of dedicated, educated, trained professionals that could be controlled by PAFCO to ensure competent, reasoned results with which to build its business upon going forward in order to encourage new homeowners to purchase a PAFCO warranty instead of the O.N.H.W.P. warranty, provided that we could lobby the provincial legislature to de-monopolize the business. The PAFCO boys would not budge from their position. I knew that they were in over their heads with their fantasy idea. They had been too successful with most other of their insurance products, and were thus blinded to the possibility of failure with their newest idea.

    I quit PAFCO shortly thereafter.

    Now, substitute Rogers for PAFCO, and substitute Dale for Martindale.

    The only difference is that Rogers ‘will’ listen to Dale.

    Rogers ‘will’ plow ahead with its vision under Dale’s guidance.

    However, success, or not, for this venture, does not lie in Dale’s hands; it lies in ‘your’ hands Canadian Realtors.

    You, Canadian Realtors, will make or break this scheme, simply by clicking, or not, on your computer keyboards, joining up with, or not, the greedy Dale Rogers corporate raiders wild-west show.

    You have the power; use it wisely.


    • Brian you are correct, but what will be the roadblock is the fear of participating in a “new stream”…a decouple…a strategic shift.

      What this entire issue is about is = content.

      Rogers in mining the monopoly that is MLS. It remains the dominant environment for Resale…period. They have been after it for a long time…and now they are trying the “legitimate” route.

      What do you suppose will happen when a communication behemoth like rogers unleashes a new environment that includes private sale, builders & developers as well as MLS properties?

      In one move their pawn will become a queen, and they will shape the environment Realtors operate in…because they will acquire what is the “all important decider” = the swayed consumer.

      Unless we Realtors are willing to block – By swinging our vital asset CONTENT – over to another vehicle (which is locked from usurpation) we will be at the whim of those who are driven to reshape it, so that they may capitalize on US through IT.

      What we Realtors will have to concede to are some glaring realities about the business that is beginning to parlay in the mind of the consumer…such as…for the average house price today, the cost to sell such house is roughly half the average wage of our average consumer.

  18. Rogers – I am not a real estate agent, I am a regular consumer and love this new initiative of yours. Keep up the great work – I am switching to your services today!

    • Sophie,
      Just remember that if you are looking to purchase a home realtor.ca is the only source with accurate, up to date information on every mls listing in Canada.
      Rogers will have to join every real estate board/association in Canada in order to obtain all listings to add to their site.
      Also if a consumer is looking for a REALTOR® Roger’s site will only feature agents who pay to be there. It is actually a lead generating company where agents will have to pay a referral fee for any leads.
      This real estate brokerage will not have their own salespeople or their own listings. They are using the listings that Canadian agents have worked to procure, and making money off of that. I find that very sad.

      • I agree Jenny; the ONLY referral you should trust is the one given by your friends and family. As a licensed Realtor my business depends on referrals but I WILL NOT pay Rogers to sell back clients they only are getting by re-listing my clients information (for free) If you are looking to buy or sell ask your friends and family who THEY TRUST for their real estate needs and then call those licensed agents!

      • Sophie

        It is very obvious you are not in the Real Estate industry….simply by the comment you have made.

        In the future please do some research before you make any further comments.

        Dare I ask this…..tell us Sophie how you think the consumer is going to benefit by Rogers making 25% for doing nothing. Remember they are going to make 25% of the commission you pay. I don’t know if you understand this.

        Hang on to your hats folks and let’s hear how uninformed Sophie is……

        • So what’s the difference if 25% (or 35%, according to Peter) of the commission goes to Rogers for “doing nothing” or 25% goes to a listing agent who takes the listing, slaps it on the mls system and waits til it sells? And don’t say it doesn’t happen – happens all the time. Are you suggesting that agent shouldn’t get paid for “doing nothing”?

          • Homeowner:

            Let’s assume the worst, as you see it, and imagine that a Realtor somehow convinces a seller to list with him/her at a certain commission percentage, seemingly does nothing within the listing period, and voila, the property sells, as if by magic.

            Even if the Realtor did absolutely nothing, and I mean ‘nothing’; i.e., answered no queries from buyers or buyers’ agents about the property; did not advertise the property anywhere except on the MLS; put no “For Sale” sign on the property, usually at the seller’s request; never personally showed the property to a buyer prospect; never spoke about the property to weekly in-office sales meetings, never arranged for an office viewing of the property; never contacted the seller, ever, whilst the property was listed; never even thought about that listing ever again…until…somehow… it got sold. What? This scenario could never happen. But if it ‘could’ happen this way, even then, the terms of the contract would have been fulfilled, AND, the seller would be very happy indeed. Why? Because the seller would have received a net return satisfactory enough for him/her to actually freely sign the papers to legitimate the transaction.

            Do you really believe that the above scenario is what happens most of the time when a listing sells? If you do you are totally ignorant of all of the behind-the-scenes things that a good listing Realtor does to facilitate a sale, namely, foremost amongst them, ‘selling’ the property to other Realtors who are looking for good properties for their buyer clients to view. One of the two main functions that a listing Realtor has, by far, is to promote the listing to other Realtors. The other is to effectively negotiate the highest price possible when dealing with offers, and this talent for negotian is just that, a true talent…an art.

            The negotiation process begins when the potential listing Realtor engages the seller who should be interviewing numerous Realtors to determine who is the best negotiator, because the best negotiator will fetch the best price for the property on behalf of the seller. This is exactly what a seller pays a listing Realtor to do when the time to negotiate a sale arrives, no matter how much the Realtor seemingly, from an outsider’s perspective, did ‘not’ do in the interim.

            It is so easy to express one’s jealousy in an area where one has no experience, isn’t it?

            Rogers/Zoocasa/Dale will actually “do nothing” at all except to try to lure dumb, lazy Realtors into their sticky web of entrapment, like a spider, with visions of easy money.

            I think that these guys would flog donuts if they thought that that endeavour would pay enough bucks.

            Tim Hortons…watch out!

            Sellers have the option that they have always had…try to sell privately…without using someone else’s developed, maintained and paid-for “private” MLS via Competition Bureau-driven expectations that they should be able to steal said service for free.

            Sellers should demand that Rogers/Zoocasa/Dale actually list and ‘sell’ their properties for 35% of what a good traditional Realtor might ask for when said consortium becomes licensed.

            Maybe you could get a job there Homeowner and make big bucks, because, after all, how hard can it be? You said so yourself.

          • Homeowner, I hope you’ll see fit to tell us your story and include:

            how you chose your Realtor;

            what they contractually agreed to do, that is either provide full service, partial service or only listing service where you were selling privately;

            how many times they visited you and for what purpose before you signed the listing agreement;

            what they did during and after an offer (if one);

            what you did when they did nothing but wait for it to sell;

            the fee you paid.


          • This is not a new operational relationship. This 25% referral fee is typical of where many relocation companies get their bread and butter from.

            The relocation company has the lead…a willing seller…which has value.

            They hand this referral – along with a fee – to the Realtor (who otherwise would be dependent on friendly relationships or advertising).

            For the Realtor it represents business being dropped in the lap.

            The Realtor can refuse the referral – that option does exist. Someone else will accept the “give to get” offer.

            …this is the Realtors problem. The over-saturation of Realtors willing to get paid in a marketplace with a shrinking transaction volume.

    • Sophie

      I’d like to list you house. If I join rogers system will you list with me.

      Now out of 5% I have to pay the cooperating broker 2.5% ie half. Next I have to pay Rogers 35% of my 2.5% or .00875 of my portion
      Leaving me with .01625%. On a $400,000 house that leaves

      Now out of that I have to pay the company I work for their portion, do not call list fees, gas, insurance(both car $2,000,000 and Errors and Omissions ) to protect your deposit, all advertising costs, paper, computer, internet, cell phone, licencing fee, continuing education(required) , membership in TREB! OREA, CREA and any other professional dues, paperwork, secretaries, someone to make appointments accurately on your property, a system that allows me to stop people from getting in your home unless they are bonded, taxes, accounting fees. You will also want me to promote your property, spend hours on the phone getting agents to show it, do open houses, and when we get an Offer you probably want me there to protect your interests. And this doesn’t even guarantee that your house will sell or I will ever get paid.

      And out of the rest I expect you think that I am going to live and support my family just as you support your from your pay, which is probably much more secure than this is.

      Now an average agent in Toronto does about 6 of these deals (6*6500= $39000 per year…. before all of those expenses…After paying these costs plus the 35% to Rogers they will be bankrupt.

      So now you will have to work with a competent agent. 3-4% of the agents in Toronto do more than 12 deals a year. These people often do 25. What do you think these people are going to say to Rogers. Go fly a kite comes to mind.

      The last time I paid 35% to anyone was in 1982. Most quality agents s topped paying these fees in the 1980’s and most of the traditional Real Estate Companies went out of business.

      About 40% of all agents leave the business every year or ‘park’ their licences and go back to a job. These will be the people that want referrals badly enough to pay 35%.

      In the meantime I can find you 500 agent who will list your home for 3.5%, giving the cooperating broker 2.5% and they will sign up for the 35% referral. Leaving them .00625%

      Funny, the teachers think they have it bad. We have no sick pay, no vacation pay, no holidays, no medical plan, no pension plan…..we can take all of the days of we want as long as we work 18 hour days to save money to pay our bills.

      So Sophie, as a good competent, hard working agent I will take your listing…but I am sorry it will now have to be at 6%. And if I am in the 3-4 % I probably won’t take your listing at all.

      A client of an $800,000 house asked me a year ago how I could justify charging my 2.5% ($20,000) if the house sold in 3 weeks. I explained that the wasn’t paying me for 3 weeks work. She was paying me for my knowledge, my experience and my ability to successfully sell her home in 3 weeks.

      I did add that I could refer her to as many agents as she wanted that would work for 1%.(still 2.5 to cooperating broker if she wanted to see any offer) . I explained that it might be more palatable to her to pay 1% and have her property on the market for 6 months so she would be paying the agent less per hour, over the 6 more period….and I would hope that it would sell.

      You, as the consumer, have to choose the quality you want. No one says that you have to list with me. There are hundreds of flat fee agent, low fee agents, almost no fee agents. How do you expect them to pay 35% to anyone.

      You need to decide if you want a part time agent who supplements his RE career with a full time job. You need to decide if you want an agent who keeps up with the law, who keeps up with the market, who sees enough property to even know what the market value of your home is.

      Sophie you decide the level of service and experience you need. But don’t complain in 3 months that you’re not happy and your agent is not professional.

      AND BEWARE those agents who want a 4-6 month listing. If you’re house hasn’t sold in three months you can always extend…..but you can’t get out before the listing ends unless you have it in writing from your agent.

      Wishing you all the luck with whatever you choose.

      • That sale pays half your annual operating cost (all in)…and you got it by not having to engage in any outbound cost.

        If you get fed 8 such deals per year you will have drawn in $50,000+ (more than the average Canadian income) while spending less in acquiring you next client.

        This is typical of Realtors whom work with relocation companies…ask them what they think of the give to get model.

        Always think from the perspective of the consumer and you will arrive at the correct response.

  19. “We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, traditional agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.”

    Another words..we are lookng for a way to rip off consumers, with smoke and mirrors, and getting involved in a business we have no background in.

    Please,…… give me a break.

    Leave the business of Real Estate to the experts, Real Estate Brokerages and licenced Realtors that have a proven track record.

  20. When you call to cancel your Rogers account, tell the rep its because of Zoocasa. This way they know it was the RE community that is dropping off their list. I just called and canceled and told the csr to record the reason as ‘cancelling because of zoocasa’ – Hopefully someone in Rogers is reading this or gets the cancel notice and is wise enough to realize their mistake

  21. I’m not understanding many of the points being made in here, especially Stephen’s. It must be because I only slept 4 hours last night.

    Did Zoocasa state they will charge a 25% referral fee? I suspect it’ll more than likely be a few hundred dollars for transactional volume.

    Some food for thought given I’m already seeing consumers wrongly think this is a fsbo move:

    Ironically, fsbo Realtors including those currently on Zoocasa will either be locked out period, or they and low fee providers would increase their prices and reduce rebates to cover the referral fee. Rates may be driven up overall anyway as happened in the U.S.

    Unless a verifiable id for login is required nothing stops the customer from choosing a Realtor outside of the referral base.

    Ditto the above unless the customer enters into some sort of buyer agency or referral agreement with Zoocasa.

    Many real estate lookers demand what we traditional Realtors have classified as private – sale prices, but when it comes to providing their real name, they balk.

    There are complaints on Zoocasa now about listings not being attached to the listing Realtor and even that paid for advertising is not prominent. That will be interesting.

    As stated, Zoocasa is unlikely to attract a significant number of high volume producers and if they do, it’ll be short lived.

    The real estate industry as a whole hasn’t spoken throughout the entire CB/TREB matter but it’s just a matter of time before the other shoe drops and their response floods the ddf & Vow markets.

    Many of us here on remonline have defended the full service model – Agency, as being in the best interest of the consumer. We’ve been criticized, berated, called liars, uneducated, overpaid, gougers and unethical for doing so. On Sept. 6, 2012 the Globe’s Steve Ladurantaye wrote in his piece titled, Upstarts hook up to Shake up real estate industry:
    “Lawrence Dale, CEO of Realtysellers… is a Toronto lawyer who has battled the real-estate industry, and he vowed not to get back into the business until he could ‘offer customers a buffet of services rather than force them to eat a whole meal.’” http://tinyurl.com/c5bpetn

    The Globe’s Lara Perkins made no mention of Lawrence Dale in her Mar. 22, 2013 piece on Zoocasa becoming a brokerage.. http://tinyurl.com/cfm9mv8

    We’ve remained consistent in our view that the consumer is best protected via full service agency.

    • One of my buddies talk to someone at Zoocasa, says their referral fee will be 35% in most markets. When they said in above article it’s negotiable, guess what we can all haggle and yet we don’t know who is getting what deal.

      Sounds so much like Rogers cell plans. Everyone gets different deal! But 35%??

      • Peter you state – “Sounds so much like Rogers cell plans. Everyone gets different deal! ” Peter, isn’t this true about the real estate consumer. There is no set/standard rate to sell your home so consumers listing with the same broker may have different rates. One might pay 5% and another 4% or even 3%. Why is there this difference in fees paid by consumers listing with the same broker? Does the consumer that pays a higher fee get a better level of service?

        • C.A.,
          Actually this is a little known fact but another one I am sure ROGERS will use in it’s marketing at Leaf Games or on Rogers TV.

          All a consumer has to do is ask a REALTOR if they have charged other clients less than the amount of commission they are being asked to pay.

          The REALTOR can never imply that they don’t charge less unless they never have.

          Clearly a REALTOR who is able to charge less than the recovery of costs of their services plus an applicable profit, is operating their business at a loss. I am sure any savvy consumer would refrain from hiring an agent who can’t even sell their own services at an honest price!

          • Eye on the Net
            So how many consumers have been overpaying for real estate services over the years. My neighbour listed with the same agent / broker that I listed with and she (over 80 years old) paid 1% more than I did which is a sizeable amount considering the value of properties. Actually her home sold faster than mine. So why did this consumer need to pay thousands more than me for the same service.
            As a consumer since I am listing my home with a broker I expect to pay the same fees as every other consumer listing with this company. Brokers should be required to have a menus of services outlining their fees to consumers. I can then compare their fees and if I think they are high can call another company. This is the only way to have fair competition.

          • Consumer advocate (In your comment to Eyes on the Net): do you suppose there could be any corelation between the comment you made that her house sold faser than yours, and the commission she elected to pay?

            I’m not for one minute suggesting that is so, but it does happen. The differential might have permitted the listing agent to do more extensive promo, pay for professional photography, maybe staging if required, high-end ads in the paper, not grainy pictures that can hardly even i.d. a property properly: all sorts of variables enter the breakdown of why and how come, not just the fact that you paid less.

            What you describe is not an a la carte menu of services, it is price-fixing and not permitted.

            Just asking why a brilliant conversationalist such as you would even ask such a question or make such a suggestion.

            Perhaps I missed your point, but I don’t think so… correct me if I’m wrong please.

            Carolyne L

          • Gee, I wonder why it is the consumer advocate types seem to think the Realtor only started working to sell the property on the day the sign is pounded into the ground or as noted by Carolyne that all properties require the same basic service.

            Consumer advocate did you demand that your mortgage co give you exactly the same rate as everyone else too?

            I suppose you also demand and get same pricing from you car dealer, roofer, window co., Rogers TV and phone service too.

            It’s comments like these that show just how naive they are about the process.

          • Consumer Advocate:

            You say you want “fair” competition.

            Fair–adverb; according to rule. (Websters)

            Competition–noun: rivalry; the struggle for trade, preeminence, etc. (Websters)

            As you can see, there is no such thing in business as “fair competition”; there is only competition.

            What you really want as a consumer is “regulated non-competition”. You just don’t realize this yet, but maybe you will upon reading the rest of this post.

            When Realtors offer their services to individuals, it is up to those same said individuals to negotiate the best rates that they can with a Realtor, just as one would do when negotiating an automobile purchase, especially a new auto purchase, whereby a Suggested Manufactuerer’s List Price is the industry-standard starting point. Don’t like ABC G.M. Fine Cars final price for your new Chevy? Try another dealership selling the same brand/model until you believe you have negotiated the best price…simple. I am sure that you would not want the new car dealerships’ umbrella associations, or the government, mandating fixed prices per make/model…would you? Yes, you say? But wait; exact prices for exact makes and models?…yes, that might be OK. But Realtors are not exact copies of one another…far from it. Therefore, the rationale re non-fixed pricing holds true with real estate commissions…yes?

            Rules are set out by overseers of sports events to try to level the playing fields, so to speak, to give all teams/individuals a fair shot at winning (to keep the games interesting, even for the supporters of the less than skilled). Fair enough. But selling one’s real estate for the best possible price is not a sports event; it is the most important financial event in most folks’ lives at any given time. Who cares if some don’t find the game interesting? Therefore, one should have the opportunity to research and thereafter freely choose from amongst the ‘best’ (not fairly imposed) Realtors to represent one’s fiduciary interests. The best Realtors demand the most…period…and they most often get it. You get to choose to pay or not.

            Don’t be as lazy as you accuse most Realtors of being. Do your own due diligence and find a high quality Realtor who knows his/her own worth in the marketplace. Negotiate a clause within the listing whereby you can legally/contractually cut said Realtor loose upon your dissatisfaction with said service. A top Realtor will have no problem with this, because if you simply become an unreasonable pain-in-the-ass, he/she will be glad to be rid of you. Simple…yes?

            The concept of “fair” is a human political construct, designed to level playing fields of much human interaction for the so-called common good. But when all is said and done, when operating within a quasi free-market economy, as we do, the best don’t need the mitigating intrusions of governing levellers to make the world a better place for entrepreneurship.

            Your seemingly preferred style of controlled economies have been tried over and over again world wide, and they have each and every one eventually been submereged to extinction beneath their own oppressive weight of control mechanisms gone bad.

            Question: How would you like it if government told you how much you could only sell your real estate for at any given time, taking away your option to negotiate the best price possible? Now put yourself in a Realtor’s shoes and ask yourself the same question re commission.

            What you really want, Consumer Advocate, is to learn how to find a really good Realtor when you want to efficiently/effectively complete a real estate transaction. Find one who will work for you, and you only, because he/she therefore will have a vested interest in making sure that you are happy with his/her service. Happy clients willingly provide referrals, the life blood of successful, professional Realtors.

            Start searching for a professional Realtor now. I am always mystified by the realtiy that most consumers spend far less time selecting a Realtor with whom to work with than they do selecting a house.

            Put the horse before the cart my friend.


          • Consumer Advocate, The disrespect you showed this lady of 80 years life experience in your comments is an insult to her. I would suspect on review of the facts, this lady choose to ensure her life savings tied up in her home were protected by hiring someone her years of experience told her she could trust.

            I would suspect this lady of 80 years experience knows a con artist when she sees it and is not foolish enough to hire on price alone.

            You may have paid 1% less than her but I am sure with her experience she choose to pay 1% of a superior level of service and representation where she was rewarded with 3-5% more in her pocket when all variables were put into consideration.

            I believe learning from my elders. I don’t believe in insulting them based on a presumption of incompetence.

        • Consumer advocate you say your neighbour paid a higher commission and their home sold faster than yours did? What a novel idea pay a higher commission and my house will sell faster! I wonder if that idea will catch on. Hmmm!

        • To Brian Martindale:

          I get your point. However, in discussing this matter with my neighbour she was surprised that she had to pay more than me to sell her home with the same company. In expressing the 1% in real dollars she was upset and didn’t understand why she paid thousands more listing with the same company. She was never advised by her agent that real estate fees were negotiable. Perhaps the real estate industry needs a brochure for consumers to read prior to listing their property that informs consumers that all real estate fees are negotiable. My neighbour took the agent at his word and accepted the fee she was charged. Perhaps the agent should have advised her to consult with her lawyer before signing the contract. BM is right. If she was buying a car without someone advising her she would probably just pay the price without any negotiations. Brian, some consumers are not good at negotiating prices / fees while others understand the rules about real estate fees and can negotiate a lower price / fee. Perhaps they have a business background and understand contract law. Real estate fees need to be more transparent. Realtors are SALES PEOPLE and make a living based on having a successful sale. A 1% difference in the amount charged consumers makes a significant difference in their bottom line. If Realtors want to be considered more than JUST SALES PEOPLE then they need to drastically change the way they do business and how they charge for their services. Also, why do Realtors discuss their fees in terms of percentages rather than dollars and cents? Not all consumers are good at math. What sounds better – my fee is 5% or my fee is $30,000. Make it simple for consumers to understand and help them make an informed decision. As a consumer I’m not convinced as most Realtors that the higher the fee the better the service. Perhaps consumers need the option to hire an independent consultant to assist them in interviewing agents, negotiating fees and be available throughout the selling process for advice. The consultant would NOT be paid by a referral fee (kickback) from the agent, but by the client. Also the consulting fee would not be based as a percentage and all consulting fees must be advertised upfront to all consumers requesting the service. Brian, here is a business opportunity for you.

          • Consumer Advocate:

            Re your “consultant” idea:

            I have had numerous former clients call me since I retired from ORE just over a year ago (Dec. 31, 2011) asking my opinions on specific real estate issues. I have responded with my best advice on each occasion. I have actually been thinking of doing just what you suggested (at $50.00 per hour flat rate) but have not moved on that idea as yet…I’m still enjoying having lots of time to do whatever I want, when I want, like working on my wooden speed boats, working on a novel, just goofing off and cruising around in my ’69 Olds 455 cubic inch gas guzzler, burning rubber and listening to Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” CD etc.

            I am scheduled to meet with someone (who reads REMonline religiously, and contacted me thereby) next month to discuss the possibility of a teaching position. If that fails to materialize due to whatever I might say controversially herein that rubs that person the wrong way between now and then, the consultancy idea could become a possibility.

            One last thing though; consumers should not confuse Brokerages with individual real estate sales people. Realtors compete with each other for business even within brokerages. The percentage model used to establish commission payable upon successful completion of a transaction is theoretically employed in order to induce the selling Realtor to negotiate the highest price possible for his/her seller client. The commission rate may not be increased once the listing contract has been signed, but it may be decreased by the listing Realtor to facilitate a potential sale. However, the buyer agent still receives the percentage amount originally stated within the listing. The selling agent absorbs ‘all’ of the commission reduction in this scenario. This type of maneuver happens often in pursuit of getting sellers’ properties sold as quickly as possible for the most money…in the sellers’ pockets. But…there are always those who will take advantage of ignorant consumers. This happens in any business enterprise. Realtors are simply high profile targets for disgruntled public attacks due to the importance of real estate transactions for the average consumer.

            If RECO actually did the job it is supposed to do, there would be far fewer Realtors out there bending/breaking the rules, and those who survived the initial five year rookie start-up gauntlet period would remain on their toes forever going forward in pursuit of becoming true professionals instead of slowly slipping into the easy routine of becoming vacuous marketing wizards without substance.

            The way the ORE bureaucrats oversee/control Realtors is where all of the problems eminate from. Hoards of incompetent Realtors on the loose, coming and going on a regular revolving door basis, is simply the cash cow of ORE’s bureaucratic communal existence. It’s an old boy’s club at the top run amuck.

          • To Brian M:
            Based on your remarks on REM you would make a good real estate consultant for real estate consumers. As a real estate sales agent it is very difficult to act as a consultant since the commission will always get in the way. There is a niche for a TRUE REAL ESTATE CONSULTANT business that represents the best interests of consumers (buyers / sellers). Sound advice is priceless and as a consumer I am certainly prepared to pay a good price for advice that protects my best interests. $50 per hour is probably too low. Who knows as a TRUE REAL ESTATE CONSULTANT you may even suggest at times that your clients sell as a FSBO.

            Is buyer agency really working or has it been designed to protect the Realtors best interest? Huge conflicts of interest in the real estate industry that need to be addressed. It appears it is not in the best interests of the real estate industry to see this happen. They will just keep creating special forms to protect the agent at their client’s expense.

          • Brian,

            With all your years and experience, did not realize that you just admitted to trading without a license-you cannot give advice as you state without a valid license-that is real estate 101. I hope the real RECO registrar reads this forum.

          • registrar:

            Consulting is not trading in real estate. It is simply providing advice vis a vis how to handle Realtors and exploring situations that may arise when dealing with Realtors. Consulting also deals with how to prep a property for sale; how to tell if a Realtor or anyone else for that matter is bullshitting; how to determine a good home inspector from a not-so-good one etc., etc. Consulting can also encompass answering questions from a buyer/seller during actual consideration of offers from a remote location or from right on-site. A consultant’s clients do not have to heed a consultant’s advice. A consultant does not have a vested interest in whether or not a client takes the paid-for advice.

            If I was to engage myself as a consultant, and If I was threatened with any kind of action by whomever/whatever organization, I would fight back…in the media.

            There is constitutional protection underpinning the freedom of pursuit of free enterprise in this country whereby as long as a person is not using another’s name, designation or misrepresentation of one’s experience, education etc., or the fruit of another’s efforts (MLS comes to mind re FSBO outfits) ad infinitum, he/she can pursue his/her business venture.

            Advice is simply advice. If someone wants to pay for it, that is his/her choice.

            Because I am not a member of Organized Real Estate, the Registrar has no power over me as long as I do not attempt to actually “trade” in real estate, that is to say, to try to assist in the actual selling or buying of real estate for direct monetary compensation; i.e., acting as an agent. It is a fine line, but one which can be dealt with.

            The day that I cannot pass on advice, either freely as I do herein, or for a fee, to do with any subject or venture in this country, will be the day when free speech becomes a non entity.

            I have already discussed this issue with a lawyer.

          • To Registrar (not real one):
            The real estate consultant is not paid based on a successful sale. They are paid by the consumer for their advice. In fact I’m not sure if Realtors should be calling themselves consultants. A true real estate consultant would NOT be a good sales associate. Most real estate sales agents give advice that steers the consumer to making an offer so the sales associate can make a commission. There are very few real estate sales people that would make good real estate consultants. If anything the real REGISTRAR should inform Realtors that they cannot call themselves real estate consultants … they are sales people.

            Real estate sales people prefer to call themselves consultants rather than “sales associate”. Why is that? It is because the public do not trust sales people. I think many people fail in the real estate business because they act like “sales consultants” rather than thinking like a sales agent.

        • PED
          I “really” like the analogy you used with Consumer Advocate, regarding his mortgage rate. EXCELLENT example. And point well-taken.

          Likewise, hope the fellow, new to the country, who thinks all agents should work for free might want to elucidate for our benefit, his feelings on that topic. Maybe there should be no fees associated with borrowing or lending, either. Bet he doesn’t have that conversation with his “bank.”

          Carolyne L

    • What this entire issue is about is = content.

      Rogers in mining the monopoly that is MLS. It remains the dominant environment for Resale…period. They have been after it for a long time…and now they are trying the “legitimate” route. Regional then national. Do you really think they don’t have the springboard?

      What do you suppose will happen when a communication behemoth like rogers unleashes a new environment that includes private sale, builders & developers as well as MLS properties?

      In short order their pawn will become a queen, and they will shape the environment Realtors operate in…because they will acquire what is the “all important decider” = the swayed consumer.

      Unless we Realtors are willing to block – By swinging our vital asset CONTENT – over to another vehicle (which is locked from usurpation) we will be at the whim of those who are driven to reshape it so that they may capitalize on us THROUGH it.

      What we Realtors will have to concede to are some glaring realities about “this” business beginning to parlay in the mind of the consumer…such as…for the average house price today, the cost to sell said asset is roughly half the average wage of our average consumer.

      There are two parts to a sale. Part A the Marketing Part B the Contract Negotiation.

      Control A and you control B.

      • This is another attempt to mislead by Brookfield or Lepage. There is NO PARTNERSHIP OR RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOOGLE OR CREA on royallepage.ca. Lepage is simply buying Google products to use on their website.

        Google specifically has NOT authorized lepage to state partner status. Google WILL claim damages against lepage if they ever claim partnership.

        Now Google technology is already being used to it’s ultimate potential by agents in a manner Brookfield and lepage legally cannot.

        Btw How did AVENTURE get turned down by CREA. Imagine how frustrated those brokerages must feel with bookfields misleading news hitting the press.

      • So whats the big deal here, other than trying to create publicity out of nothing. Royal Lepage is just using Googles features that anyone can use on website like Google Maps. What am I missing?

        More like a sandal or flip flop breaking than a shoe dropping! Or maybe one of Brian’s Walmart shoes. Definitely not one of Virginia’s designer shoes.

  22. Mr. Dale could not beat the system; now with Rogers assistance, he wants to join this self same system others built with hard work, cash, and sweat equity. Interesting, however Rogers should butt out and simply stick to their core business while Mr. Dale should re-enter the murky waters he came from and quit trying to muddy the waters for the Professional Realtors.
    This whole bit of news just serves as more obfuscation, as well as providing the wrong kind of publicity!
    If you can’t beat them, join them and stir the pot? For shame to both Rogers and Dale.

    • I say everyone who is with Rogers, CANCEL your subscriptions! Then spread what Rogers is doing through your Twitter and FB accounts.

  23. Okay, now it’s time for all full-time, full-service, client-focused Realtors to get back to work. We’ve seen this kind of nonsense before and these kinds of players before. They come. Then they go. If we continue to look to our own high standards of client service, our businesses with always thrive – in any market. Don’t sweat the small stuff.

    • Are you selling shovels?

      Because it sounds like you are suggesting to Realtors to bury their head in the sand…ignore it until the barrage of those working to change things have boxed you in.

  24. As a former screwed and disgruntled member of the Realtysellers concept of 10 years ago who trusted and swallowed the B.S. so-called vision spewed from the principals at the time; I say – What Hypocrisy!!! Both for ROGERS and DALE.

    DALE and his cronies fleeced TREB and it’s members out of millions of hard earned dollars while touting that traditional Realtor practices were BAD for consumers. His shtick was that Realtors were not entitled to be paid full commissions for all the work they do and pursued a viscous course to prove his point.

    Realtysellers is at the least partly responsible for changing, nay, negating the perception of the Realtor and the real estate industry in the public’s eyes today.

    I believed that Realtysellers probably had a potential for good at the beginning but their ultimate chosen direction for greed ended up compromising their own integrity in the end causing chaos in their ranks and ultimately the industry. All along, Realtysellers was just a scheme to capture what they perceived to be an untapped segment of the marketplace to make even more millions from disenchanted consumers and litigated Realtors.

    DALE who professes to look out for the consumer and claims he knows what the public wants is now pretending to be what he insulted as a profession in the past and tried with a passion to undermine.

    Carolyn Beatty bases her initiatives on ”focus groups”. I wonder who decided to copy the same old Real Estate Web Site bait and switch concept format that proliferates the “Net’.

    “We believe this will be a very efficient way of getting qualified customers in front of qualified agents.” says Beatty. The only thing efficient about ROGERS is the way they squeeze money out of consumers with their cable and cell phone networks. I guess they like the way DALE has convinced them how easy it was for him.

    What exactly does ROGERS think a “qualified” customer is? Someone with a pulse? Consumers are smarter than that.

    What exactly does ROGERS think a “qualified” agent is? Someone with a pulse? Well, yeah that’s what they think. That’s obviously what DALE thinks.

    ROGERS may see potential in doing nothing more than gathering a multitude of incompetent real estate registrants contact info and advertising to the public that they have the perfect “QUALIFIED AGENT” for their location. Lot of sites do that already.

    Realtors beware, ROGERS is not “Just One More” real estate lead generation web site. As well as being a marketing machine, they have their hands on the throat of many Realtor’s in Canada already through other mediums so this idea may get legs with or without DALE.

    Carolyn Beatty says she is not concerned about DALE’s reputation in the industry. How naive is she? She just invited the fox into the hen house. Now he can spend ROGERS time and money scooping the consumer and stiffing the entire real estate industry across Canada.

    As far as “Rate Your Agent” is concerned; give the informed consumer the credit for being able to decide for themselves who is best to work in their neighbourhood.

    Why would anyone hire a Realtor because ROGERS said so?

    Stick with technology ROGERS!

    Hey Jim: I hope you don’t see this as a personal attack and keep it from the other 100% disgusted with ROGERS people.

  25. As it stands today, if someone, or something, meets the requirements of organized real estate, they can be a member. No fuss, no muss.

    Make it harder to become a realtor, make it harder to keep a license, and double or triple the fees. Enforce the code of ethics, and prosecute. Get rid of the people who cannot uphold a level of service that the public is demanding.

    What will this do? Quite frankly it will get rid of “some” of the individuals who should not have a license.

    How does this apply to the current conversation? If I am a good realtor, who provides a level of service that my clients appreciate, I control how I do, I am accountable for my actions, and I am the recipient of the benefits of running a good business. I want a level playing field where we all play by the same rules, and are forced to uphold a very high level of service. As an example, RECO in particular should not be run by Realtors, it should be run by people who are experts in compliance management, and have the authority, with impunity, to strictly enforce REBBA.

    Let the Dale’s of the world have access to what they are entitled to just like anyone else who passes the exams or opens a brokerage.

    This business is not about how many realtors we can get to pay fees, it is about finding great people who can provide great service, and make a good living doing it.

    Change is coming, change will happen, however CREA, RECO, and OREA are in place to protect consumers. They are ultimately responsible for problems arising from not protecting the public good.

    • Mark the whole system is based on numbers. Most Brokerages welcome anyone and anyone. As long as this is the model and brokerages need to sell franchises and franchises need bodies…

      We have thrown up our hands with many of our agents. We train them, coach them on how to get started, follow-up…but no result. They have licenses pay their dues and we cannot afford to fire them for lack of business – heck they will just end up somewhere else anyway.

      What are we up to know 38,000? It was 17000 when I started.

      Hi level of service has to be defined by the end user. Except the end user just wants to sell their home or buy a home and is not in tune to what they are missing or how the people on the other end of the transaction is being treated.

      Here is a headline: OREA puts a moratorium on Real Estate licenses and moves towards mandatory increasing skill and knowledge of current members. (sans open book exams LOL).

      • No argument.

        There is no point in moaning and groaning about Dale or anyone else as long as the system, and the people in the system are engineered for volume and not quality.

        A race to the bottom, e.g. the lowest level of service for the most profit, is not good for anyone.

        Major changes are required to improve the quality of the system, and the people in it. It is hard for this to happen as long as RECO is tied at the hip to OREA, there is very little transparency. RECO needs to be independent, heavily funded, no realtors on the board, and have some teeth. It’s only reason for existing is to protect consumers, how much clearer can that be.

        • It’s synonymous to how some drug testing companies and doctor’s are “funded” by pharmaceutical giants. The regulators cannot have a profit based interest in the product or service they are regulating!

          You are absolutely right Mark. The question now is how do you and I (and anyone else who shares this view) go about making this change take place?

  26. As a home owner this may be good site for us. I think realtors should not be paid as selling a home needs knowlege and experience they wont share and thats not competitive. This zoocasa can help me find the free ones needing to get started or get leads and get then to work and sell my home sold for free. My home money belongs to me and it is not fair we have to pay the no competing realtors. The government here in Canada is so smart to make it so home owners can keep the money and not let those realtors get it so easy as they are not competing with guys like me fair. They have knowledge to sell i dont have and that makes them better so i cant compete and this is not fair. They make doctor free here and raltor must be free too. they have much money with nice cars and homes and can do free in the future. This man is right as we need the realtors but to pay is not fair

    • Dear Verinder

      I believe that you have misunderstood this article, maybe because until now Lawrence Dale and his company have believed that they could make money by paying no one else.

      To clarify, this article says that real estate agents will now, if they join, pay Rogers/zoocasa a fee, maybe 25% of their commission. That means Realtors will have to charge you MORE to sell your home, not less, and not free,!

      I am happy for you, and all your friends to go to Rogers/Zoocasa to get them to sell you’re home for free.

      If you go to a Lawyer, an Engineer, an Accountant , all who have education and experience they will not share it for free. They went to school and worked hard to get the education and experience and you can get the same knowledge and experience by going to our schools and paying them, then supporting yourself while you get the experience. That is how we share it with you.

      If you will work with someone with no experience it may be free, and your house may not sell.

      Doctors are not free here unless you don’t pay your taxes. Your taxes pay the Doctors for seeing you and your family. Realtors taxes pay for Doctors and teachers and policemen etc etc.

      I am sorry that this has confused you. One question….would you go to work for free tomorrow….many people would hire you for free….but would you want to work?

    • Verinder:

      Please do not take my following words as brushing you, or your thoughts and words off as being irrelevent… but, your attitude is very reflective of the typically uneducated Canadian consumer when it comes down to understanding just what is supposedly free in this country and who actually pays for all of the supposed freebies.

      The government does not make doctors free here, as you describe it. Canada has a mandatory socialistic health care system whereby every Canadian pays for it through their provincial income tax structures. In some provinces the percentage of the entire budget eats up well over 50% of all income taxes collected annually. In one province in particular (Ontario), it is predicted by some economists of note that within a couple of decades 80% of the budget will be eaten up by ‘free’ healthcare costs. Verinder, you continually pay for this ‘free’ service even if you hardly ever, or never, use it. Nothing is free my friend; it just looks that way to those who do not understand basic economics, who are in turn attracted to outfits who promise ‘free’ stuff up front as lures for suckers to latch their grasping mouths around until they are well hooked on the cult line of socialism across the board.

      No one works for free, not even gods. They too demand sacrifices, homages, promises of solemn piety, and, oh yes… your money… through their chosen earthly vessels, aka religious sales people.

      Yes, Zoocasa may indeed help you find a Realtor “getting started”, who doesn’t know what he/she is doing, rendering him/her uncompetitive with the professionals, but right in line with your idea to pick his/her brain of whatever might be in there (shouldn’t take more than a minute or two, after all, time is money) so that you can then cast that newbie to the wind as you move forward and try to sell your house yourself for free. Curse those Realtor bastards who want to be paid for their services!.. after they have sold your house… aye Verinder?

      I think that you should lobby your Member of Parliament to pass a law that everybody has to work for free, including you.

      I hope you know a lawyer who works for free too my friend.

      Hint: Don’t call Lawrence Dale though. One thing he is not is a Communist in Socialist’s clothing.

      Keep up the faith though Verinder. Some day you will learn that in this country you have to give to get. You just have to be discriminating in your giving.



    • This is obviously a joke:

      “””They have knowledge to sell i dont have and that makes them better so i cant compete and this is not fair. They make doctor free here and raltor must be free too. they have much money with nice cars and homes and can do free in the future. This man is right as we need the realtors but to pay is not fair”””

    • Doctors do NOT work for free!! The Government pays them. So, you’re saying the government should pay the Realtor, to sell your home. Is that right??? What???????

    • Verinder just a reminder to you that doctors’ services in this country are not free – – the government pays them for you and me with our taxes. They get so much money every month. They also have nice and expensive cars, etc. but they had a lengthy schooling for it in a medical school. Their work is hard and we should understand and appreciate that.

      Realtors must have presentable cars to drive their clients around to see homes, some of them will buy, some of them will not.
      I don’t understand why you even say that our services must be free. Helping people sell or buy properties is our business…and we didn’t just wake up in the morning and decided to sell houses that day and on. We went to school for it, undergone extensive training and continued upgrading at our expense.
      Perhaps you have no idea how much money we dish out everyday, every month & every year just to maintain our business and put ourselves in very good standing with CREA, OREA,etc. and most importantly, the public. With the fees and dues we have to pay…it’s not fair for you to reiterate that our services must be free. Thanks.

  27. Rogers/Zoocasa are not adding any value to the consumer experience. They are simply another service looking to capture Realtor advertising budget by offering a platform for lead generation. Their ‘qualified agents’ are simply agents who buy their advertisements and referrals. This is a joke, but sadly may produce leads for their customers.
    No different that a national brand franchise pretending that they offer a better consumer experience. Their customer is the franchise owner who’s customer is the Realtor.
    If organized real estate wants to make a better consumer experience then it should raise the bar and eliminate the Realtors who can’t spell or write a simple intelligent clause in a contract – except organized real estate is rewarded for having more members, so it will spend its budget defending the reputation of Realtors. Ship of fools really.
    Social media is already rating the agents. Do a good job and you’ll have business. We don’t need new advertising vehicles that sell referrals and leads for any Realtor who wants to be a customer, we need better Realtors with smarter business models.

    • Concur 100% Paul

      However doing a good job is not enough. Why? Because in our industry the illusion of doing a good job is as powerful as actually doing a good job.

      Ever notice that the local papers are dominated by Teams large and small who pool their resources to dominate the advertising landscape. Still in this day and age we have dedicated pat on the back award pages by what you call the ‘National Brand’ pretending to offer a better consumer experience.

      In reality the consumer experience is getting worse and worse – and this is what is opening the door people like Dale and companies like Rogers. Sure we all do good by our principle client – but time and time again I find there is a very poor overall experience and sadly the groups who are taking up the most ‘room’ in the industry are the ones who are offering the least amount of true service.

      Example: An agent who has strong working knowledge of home construction and is accredit as a contractor and a home inspector, with 15 years as a Salesperson and a 99% list to sold ratio as well as being consistently in the top 5-10% in sales for TREB. Is not as valuable to the industry and will probably be outsold as a newbie with a lot of money and a savvy marketing team.

      Until there is transparency what we really are offering Dale et al. have every right to challenge us, and the buying public has the right to have those options.

      I welcome it – especially if they can create an environment where we can truly showcase our talents and be chosen on merits. Clearly that is not how it is working now – unless your idea of Merit is number of sales.

    • Of course this is from the wrong perspective. Yours.

      The consumer will determine value, it is up to Realtors to have a commensurate reply or service that directly engages the consumers thinking and decisions – weighed against other pitches. Period.
      (whether another Realtor or Service variation).

      Do you think consumers care about what is “behind the curtain”. They don’t care about your courses or you breaking a nail hanging a sign.

      They expect you to do battle for them – It’s wrapped up in the $20k that they pay in commission for handling as currently done.

      – What’s your strategy?

      There are several different methods employed throughout the world when it comes to how Real Estate is transacted. Never suspect that the virus of an IDEA can take root in a popular and palpable “anti-Realtor” environment.

      It starts with the willingness of a seller to sell – THIS motive has value, homeowners are beginning the realize the leverage it offers.

  28. What you see here is Rogers reverse engineering the structural business model of MLS.ca/Realtor.ca

    Collectively the content on MLS was/is provided by Realtors, but MLS uses this collective contribution towards a captive membership. A membership for which Realtors pay costs & fees to retain, but whom have always been its value.

    In short – The collective environment of Realtors, willing to promote & cooperate with one another through MLS to sell Real Estate is being used to capitalize on those who provide the content. Same model.

    Think about it. What web-based business requires fees proportionate to the Broker ver. of MLS? (And is not the source for the content, or does it create it). The only similar examples are dating sights.

    Someone might suggest that mls.ca/realtor.ca is for the promotion of Realtors. This is a dull minded thought….simply have a look at the degree of prominence and vigor that the listing showcases the professional services of the Realtor and their associated brand (Brokerage) in any meaningful way that could be called “marketing”.

    Realtors will pay. This is what Rogers knows. The front end of the business is Advertising. Realtors pay for this upfront (whether or not an offer is ever inked).

    If there is an offer – Enter phase 2 – The applicability of the Realtor = To provide Fiduciary services in negotiating a contract. People know they need this assistance. (People think of Realtors as they do Cops & Lawyers, culturally disparaged – until you need one).

    The Business of Marketing, however – Is the business of Communication. And this is the core Infrastructure and utility that Rogers can provide to any venture under its wings.

    What if Realtor de-coupled from zoocasa?

    What if Realtors de-coupled from MLS/Realtor.ca [slowly] to a marketing engine that did not cost them as much to be a member, did not take referral fees, played an active roll in producing quality photography, video and placed newspaper ads for the listing…at no cost to the Realtor…and gave the Realtor more exposure in the listing page? Which also included an “about the Realtor” section right in the listing?

    Although some Realtors may be in fear of what this could mean, you must know that this is the best machine for the task…when confronted with how Rogers could re-shape the marketplace.

    That thing I describe is under construction…

    Any way that you slice it sweeping changes are under foot, the internet has yet to impart its full affect. This feeds the growing idea that people don’t “feel” the need for a Realtor when it comes to marketing.

    With more examples growing that demonstrate “exposure to the marketplace” the core value of the Realtor will be reduced to their own individual skill as a contract mediator and marketing consultant…material and marketing channels will be provided externally.

    The Realtors response now will be to either fight this change or involve themselves in a market model that gives them a fighting chance in what will be the new environment.

      • …nope, but his articles point to some glaring realities. Realities that are from the perspective that matters. The consumer.

        Do you think the public cares how hard it is to be a cop? nope. All they know is when they dial 911 they expect service…and it shouldn’t cost an arm or a leg to save one.

        (admittedly I had to google Mr. Moranis after reading your reply).

    • Stephen

      Why do I think you work for Rogers and are not a Registrant?????

      Firstly, no matter what you offer we, registrants, will still have to pay our association fees so you are saving us nothing. To belong to a board with a proprietary MLS system (no not MLS.CA or realtor.CA those were marketing tools before the competition bureau decision, now not so much) we are REQUIRED to be members of our provincial and the Canadian associations!

      Next, when we get a referral from MLS.CA/Realtor.CA we DO NOT PAY a referral fee.

      So ”what web based business requires fees proportionate to the broker over of MLS” is a statement that makes no sense to a Registrant because it doesn’t happen in RE

      ”But MLS uses this information”. MLS is a registered trademark not a person or a thing deemed a person , that can use anything???? Please explain!!!!

      Paragraph 4 in its entirety makes no sense….please explain.

      Re para 5:MLS.CA/realtor.CA(one in the same) was a website to produce calls in the same way a newspaper did and I have reaped many deals through its use and found it very effective in it’s day as did many of my associates. But you had to be good at communication and immediate response as well as follow up for it to be effective……and its net cost is about $50/year….WOW

      And so Rogers would be good to keep that price in mind!

      Again 0% referral fee and $50. Per year!!!!!!!!!!!

      Re para 10: This means Rogers will cost less than $50. Per year.

      Re:my photos and brochures being done by Rogers …I hire my own photographer for my brochures and clients pictures. They work for me and are under my direction. TREB tried to do what you are suggesting, which worked for a short time. I have been doing this since 1982 and my first homes were seen on www in 1986!

      ”About the Realtor” is not allowed on Stratus under TREB but can be used on MLS.CA/Realtor.CA as the agent wishes, or not

      Para 11: ”you must know that this is the best machine for the task” That goes down with thoughts from Rogers like ‘

      ”there will be no backlash when we tell all the Realtors that we have hired a man as Broker of Record who has called all Realtors idiots for being service oriented and has become the poster boy for demeaning other Realtors and their service methods, and has said Sellers and Buyers have no need for help excepting to be posted on MLS.ca and to show this has aligned himself with sellers wishing to sell their homes without advice’

      The only thing this is best for is another site for Rogers to put all of its advertising on !

      What you are describing is another Realtor.com and we already have access to that through NAR and CREA.

      We don’t have to fight, just ignore. And many of us already have Remax.ca.

      Regarding becoming a Brokerage on all boards in Canada to access the proprietary information on Stratus and our other MLS systems.
      I, personally have had all information regarding my sales and purchases removed from these systems. I had signed contracts allowing this information to be used by Realtors to appraise homes and to be published to TREB Realtors. That did not include it being offered in the public domain. Under the Privacy Act and PIPEDA I requested it be removed and it was. The permission to use this data can be revoked at any time.

      ”It is not enough that the information be available in the public domain ie Registry offices… to use this information one must prove that they obtained it in the public domain ie Registry offices”

      When the public becomes more aware of these acts YOU will be working in a different world!

      • You have taken on assumptions and approached your reply as if your assumptions were facts. (you must be a conservative).

        Your tonal tirade is the fingerprint of your own self importance.

        What is described by me will be evident to you in time. It is not my precognitive to provide a hand held tour of “new fangled ideas” for the stubborn and frightened.

        CREA , RECO and OREA = Registrants must be in good standing with them, however membership to TREB is not a requirement to sell Real Estate, but it helps.

        This membership is expensive.

        The content that is TREB populates to mls.ca/realtor.ca
        What the buying public sees is the only thing of importance.

        Is TREB a Princess on a pedestal to you? A Realtor can’t even place within their treb listing “watch the video on my website johnqrealtyseller.com” TREB will not permit diverting the mind of the consumer to even the faintest idea that seeing Real Estate online can be done somewhere else. Does that sound like a healthy monopoly?

        Now that Rogers is after the ability to take all said content and post it to its own web based presence all it has to do is advertise its existence…and for Rogers that will be Cheap and Easy.

        • Stephen

          Watch the video? Have you ever taken the time to use the “Virtual Tour” button on listings? Perhaps you are just one of those guys who is too cheap to spend your money on one and aren’t aware of its’ existence. As for your “precognitive” why not put your dough where your rambling pen is and join the skunk at the picnic in his latest incarnation?

          • Virtual tours are meant for those stuck in 1992.

            Imbedding a youtube video into a listing is a better demonstration – and a secondary channel of traffic.

            I assume the balance of your statement was the result of your child reaching the keyborad.

        • Sorry if my assumptions were incorrect.. I stand by my response!

          You really aren’t a Realtor or you would know that I don’t need to be a member of OREA or CREA if I don’t want to be a member of TREB .

          RECO does not require that I be a member of any association as long as I am in good standing with RECO and work for a Brokerage in good standing with RECO.

          You seem to exemplify all that Rogers is known for even if you don’t work for them… and you call my response a ”tonal tirade” ..what would you call yours?

          Also might I suggest that before you use big words like ”precognitive” you look up the definition, and the fact that it is an adjective not a noun, and has no meaning that would fit in your sentence.

          It would seem that this is your first foray into this real estate forum… and real estate as a whole. You had to Google Stephen Moranis??

          Do you also not read the Globe, Business Week etc? Or are you from another part of the country that doesn’t have the Competition Bureau. Oops not in Canada?. Maybe it was you who chose Lawrence Dale?

          ”The membership(in TREB) is expensive”. It is TREB members who paid to set up the present system, and at least three systems before them, including all of the historical data that you want instant free access to. You don’t want to pay….someone had to!

          Unlike most of my associates I think you should have it available ……as long as each consumer involved gives you written consent, and then you should pay. I believe if consumers were aware of what is happening to their information they would revolt!

          To me TREB is a trade organization that has created something that now everyone wants. Go and set up your own system and amass the data piece by piece. And call me when you are finished.

          And you obviously weren’t involved when we, the TREB members who PAID for the system, voted to have all self promotion including websites removed from the Stratus System, and no longer allowed, a vote that went out to 30,000 members….but you know what’s best for us, or are you just interested in what’s best for you??

          And how can this situation be termed a monopoly?

          When is a situation a monopoly when you have the right to set up a parallel system with a parallel real estate board running in the middle of Toronto offering the same or better services to 30,000 people, or to 50,000 in Ontario…..Oh , i know, when you might have to pay the price……. so you pout long and hard, so you don’t have to pay the price. Now you want to make the rules too!!

          Chances are you could put TREB out of business. Who would do your work then.?

          In the meantime I wish you well in your future endeavours… just don’t expect respect that is unearned and cooperation from ones you have forced. It isn’t about to happen from anyone who knows what those words mean.

          And send one of your employees to get a Real Estate licence, better still take the time and get one yourself.

          • What I said is “it helps”.

            Not being a member to said associations would be destructive to your business model.

            I don’t doubt you owned a website in the 80’s … I also don’t doubt you had a convertible and a tube-top to go along with it.

            Clearly you know nothing about SEO & SEM.



            What this entire issue is about is = content.

            Rogers in mining the monopoly that is MLS.

            MLS remains the dominant environment for Resale…period. (Rogers) has been after it for a long time…and now they are trying the “legitimate” route.

            Regional then national.

            Do you really think they don’t have the springboard?

            What do you suppose will happen when a communication behemoth like rogers unleashes a new environment that includes private sale, builders & developers as well as MLS properties?

            In short order their pawn will become a queen, and they will shape the environment Realtors operate in…because they will acquire what is the “all important decider” = the swayed consumer.

            Unless we Realtors are willing to block – By swinging our vital asset CONTENT – over to another vehicle (which is locked from usurpation by Rogers) we will be at the whim of those who are driven to reshape it so that they may capitalize on us THROUGH it.

            What we Realtors will have to concede to are some glaring realities about “this” business beginning to parlay in the mind of the consumer…such as…for the average house price today, the cost to sell said asset is roughly half the average wage of our average consumer.

            There are two parts to a sale. Part A the Marketing Part B the Contract Negotiation.

            Control A and you control B.

            (This format is for thinking – If your going to squirt on my grammar know there are others here who are in greater need of your benevolent contribution to the English language)

        • Stephen, you say:

          “A Realtor can’t even place within their treb listing “watch the video on my website johnqrealtyseller.com” TREB will not permit diverting the mind of the consumer to even the faintest idea that seeing Real Estate online can be done somewhere else. Does that sound like a healthy monopoly?”

          Here’s one very good reason why Stephen. Some of VT’s with third party websites where that third party allowed all manner of advertising. I’ve personally seen advertisements for sex toys, dating sites, drug paraphernalia, calenders with unclad men and women pop up aong side the VT.

          Is that what you want to see when you view a virtual tour and if it’s not, how would seeing that impact your opinion of our professionalism and what some of us may be promoting?

          The rule then is simple – make sure it is about the property only.

          (you’re the Stephen I mentioned not understanding in my previous post, btw)

          • Correct – The rule then is simple – make sure it is about the property only.

            If this is what another vehicle did then there would be no such ‘peripheral” advertising as you are bound to experience elsewhere.

  29. Do people honestly go to Zoocasa to web-search for new home ????

    Do people honesty find it so hard to find Realtor that they need Zoocasa to refer them to one????

    Will Realtors honestly get profitable leads from Zoocasa worth paying for????

    If you answered Yes to any of the above – seek mental help immediatly!

  30. Let me get this straight … Lawrence Dale who has displayed nothing but contempt and disregard for Real Estate Agents, now wants to join our ranks and be part of a company that will rate Realtors in order to see if we qualify to get a lead that they stole from us in the first place (?)

    I’ll tell you one thing; He’s got stones !!

    Also, maybe Rogers would like Realtors to start a new site or blog to rate the Cellular Phone companies (?) I wonder where they think they would rate.

  31. March 27, 2013

    Although this announcement is on REM apparently both ROgers and Lawrence Dale have forgotten to notify TREB and RECO.

    It seems, according to TREB 5 minutes ago that Lawrence Dale is registered at this time with RealtySellers at RECO. He has not resigned from RealtySellers. He has not closed down RealtySellers and He is not the Broker of Record of RealtySellers, although he may be the owner.

    Maybe this will be a big surprise to the Realty Sellers employees!

  32. Higher number of Realtors + Highly concentrated deal flow = Dismal Average Transaction Ends (“DATE”)

    Low DATE = Higher probability of Compromised Standards and Intergrity (“CSI”)

    Until such time as organized real estate raises the bar of qualifications and standards of those entering the profession (along with those already in it), the Zoocasa model will always generate interest and participation.

    If you we were swamped with deals, neither you nor I would have time to pepper this story with comments.

  33. I assume Rogers plan is to use the reciprocity site to generate leads that can then be sold on to other Realtors. CREA might want to pass a rule that stops members and member companies from charging referral fees from leads generated by reciprocity sites.
    If this is even remotely successful I can see Bell and Shaw and then the banks all following suit. If Rogers wants to open offices in all Provinces fine but just to set up an internet referral system using the information we all contribute financially to should be stopped now.

  34. All real estate agents need to cancel their cell phones with rogers. Why are we supporting a company that is out to take business form us? Tens of Thousands of agents use their cell service, they would loose a lot of money each mth. Also remember Bell tried the same thing

  35. Interesting that Mr. Dale says says his focus at Zoocasa is now “at the other end of the spectrum. We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, traditional agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.”

    Talk about doing an about face. How much research does it take to see that 85% + sellers use traditional agents.

    Also I’m curious about this point. “Becoming licensed gives Zoocasa access to real estate boards’ MLS data, improving its home search engine for potential buyers.”

    Becoming licensed will give access to real estate boards/associations if Zoocasa joins the Boards. Do they plan to join every board in Canada? Many boards/associations do not upload their mls info to third party sites which Zoocasa is at this point.

    Very few agents and brokerages are currently using CREA’s DDF feed so if they pull from there it won’t be accurate. Plus agents can opt not to include their listings on the DDF feed by checking a box on their listing forms. So where will Zoocasa get all their listings? Only from the agents who join on with them?

    As agents we will continue to tell the public that realtor.ca is the ONLY website in Canada that is current, up to date and contains all properties listed on mls in Canada.

    I can’t see Zoocasa as being any better than any of the other third party destination sites or lead generation companies using our listings to add $$$ to their coffers. For a huge corporation I really don’t think they have thought this whole concept out very well.

    • Jenny, First readers should welcome your points as they provide a point of discussion to start, so lets clear things up.

      1) Yes Zoocasa Brokerage is joining every needed board in Canada. This will cost less than $100,000 and will entitle them to every listing in the Nation, all historical SOLD data, and impunity from agent retaliation because of the REALTOR CODE and Consent Agreements. What a great DEAL for Zoocasa, Hundreds of Millions of Dollars spent to build a database that only cost $100,000 to own yourself.

      2) Although the DDF is irrelevant to Zoocasa who already paid CREA $50,000 to be included in the DDF potential sites, unless you are an independent brokerage, who does not allow their listing to be on any site other than the one they own, there is now no way to keep your listings out of the DDF.

      Jenny you are with RE/MAX, they are already using the DDF feed and if your listings are now on remax.ca, I am sorry but you are forced to share them with 100% of all members of CREA including ComFREE and Zoocasa. Whether that takes one CB complaint or not is irrelevant, RE/MAX corporate already knows this is the case. CREA knows it and it is extensively referred to in the DDF FAQs.

      Contact your board CTO and ask for the opinion they received from their lawyers before they passed the ddf at your agm.

      • Eye on the Net
        You are right, if Zoocasa does indeed join every board/association in Canada then the DDF is irrelevant.
        So would they join with just a Broker of Record and no salespeople? Would Mr. Dale be the Broker of Record for every brokerage? Don’t they have to have a bricks and mortar address to open a brokerage, or just a post office box? I’m not sure what RECO protocal is.
        I don’t have a problem with my listings being shared. My Point2Agent website has syndicated our listings to third party websites for years.
        With the DDF, CREA gives the brokerages the option to choose which third party sites they want their listings forwarded to.

        • Under the law no Realtor cann pay a bird dog fee ie a fee to a non-Realtor. In Ontario RECO states that no fee can be paid to a nonRECO member . They are joining all boards to be able to accept referral fees.Costco is did it all through a Calgary Brokerage I believe.

        • OK Folks you actually have a Past President of a Board whose knowledge base has some depth, so you should send her any questions you might have.

          Jenny, Although Zoocasa has stated it will join all boards, they will not have to join them all with the interboard access provisions in place for many boards. By simply joining TREB they will have free access to the OMREB MLS database without having to join OMREB.
          What will be interesting will be when they Demand that the rules included in Boards By-Laws are enacted as written to be used for Zoocasa’s benefit. Most Boards have By-Laws created with the input of CREA for as oversight. This has created almost homogenous loopholes in all Boards By-Laws that can be used to attack those Boards members.

          Zoocasa will only require a Brokerage in each province and set it up as a virtual office with a PO Box. I am sure if a Broker of Record is needed for any province a couple of referrals for FREE will find them some name to put on the Brokerage License.

          Actually Point2 Agent sites all happen to be in breach of RECO by the way, for the province of Ontario ( I guess your board did not tell it’s members that one either). Point2 itself already tried to launch the NLS (National Listing Service) in Canada a few years back but failed. They then CONNED CREA and many regional MLS systems to use their Syndication Platform for FREE ( I wonder why?). Point2’s Leadership is all over the NET in print, interviews and it’s own Publications telling REALTORS that the REALTORS themself are not qualified to run MLS 2.0 as they call it.

          Yes, CREA gives Brokerages the Option on 3rd Party sites but NOT fellow CREA member sites. Zoocasa or ComFREE are are exploiting this loophole with websites owned by CREA members thus you CANNOT stop them from getting your listings and if you try to, the CB will quickly step in.

          Now as everyone knows on this site we support the Pro-Competitive use of the DDF to wipe out Zoocasa, ComFREE, mere posters and such. The same rules that Dale Lawerence is using against you are easily used against Rogers/Zoocasa itself.

          • Eyes on the Net
            Perhaps you are unaware that the data sharing agreement that has been in place between TREB and OMDREB for many years is coming to a close very shortly. This will result in agents having to join their neighbouring board or use Connect if they wish to trade in these areas outside their home board.

          • Jenny, Yes Connect will save Zoocasa/Rogers about $10,000 a year. I suspect the boards Zoocasa joins in Ontario that are currently not involved in Connect will find the threat of the CB being brought into play to get them to join.

            Connect was a great idea from the co-operative nature the MLS was designed to operate under but it is already opened a door to yet another attack under the self centered competitive agendas of new entrants into the brokerage business.

            I suspect the sharing agreement is ending because Connect is now in place?

      • Re #1 …..I hope you are aware that having impunity from agents does not give them impunity from the consumers whose data they will be using under PIPEDA and the Privacy Act.

        Most of these consumers HISTORICALLY did not give permission for their information to be in the public domain. And under PIPEDA can retract or rescind any peramission given.

        • What about the agents themselves Marny? Rogers can very easily calculate the earnings of any agent by simply downloading mls data into a spreadsheet, using the function field to multiply selling price against commission posted, and simply do a sum total on the amounts.

          Rogers will know within pennies how much every member of your board has made during their entire careers.

          Hey maybe that is how they will select who to target to sign up??????

  36. I signed up and look forward to the extra money. I’m a part time new Canadian agent who speak broken english and work for discount realty company now. I list your house free when you buy from me. In my home country i made a minimal living, here i sell 5 houses and do well to provide for my family.

    Please felow realestators take your heads out of your sand and move into future. Discount work very good to me. Will be wave of future. Or cut the 75% of dead beat agents loose and be back to your relic glory days. Have good luck getting the boards and reco to AXE “the non performers” who are always on your radar. Theyre not at all greedy or in need of dead beats money to move into future.

    • Good luck to you Terry. Luck runs out when you are faced with your first law suit. You should put a value on what you do. Pay attention to the old adage “you get what you pay for”. Obviously in your case, nothing.

  37. Where to start? So we (members of organized real estate) paid Realtysellers a $700,000 settlement in 2004. They continued to lodge a $540 million law suit vs CREA – HOW MUCH OF OUR BOARD FEES DO YOU THINK THAT SWALLOWED?

    Lawrence Dale should be stymied at every turn for the damage he has done to our brand and to our industry and to our individual pockets. After realizing FSBO doesn’t work he should not just be allowed to join our ranks and help Rogers cream referral commission fees.

    Boycotting Rogers is a step in the right direction.. but a baby step. To really inflict some damage/ to properly ensure that Dale cannot just abandon his old business model after doing a decent job of almost ruining our livelihoods and then jumping ship to the next shiny new venture, BOYCOTT ZOOCASA. The DDF (Data Distribution Facility) allows you to choose who to can disseminate your information. Make sure your listings do not get forwarded to Zoocasa- why should we want to help them and Dale of all people?

    Also, what makes you think they will suddenly have all these referrals to bestow on the willing stooges who sign up to this farce? We all know how hard it is to grow a business / to get your own referral networks going. I suspect it won’t be as easy as they think. If you sign up for referrals from them, there is a good chance they won’t be able to deliver on these promises. And what does 100% commission mean when there is an estimated 25% referral fee? It means 75% commission !

    As ever, where Rogers and/or Lawrence Dale are concerned,… caveat emptor!

    • It is unlikely that lead realtors will have anything to do with this system. The quality of the realtor that joins this referral system will make this venture short term.

  38. Here are the facts folks:

    1) Rate Realtor will not work out: Too much suing going on out there and lots of not-so-friendly competition going on as well. So this will be full of Realtors bad mouthing each other and writing glowing fake reviews of themselves. The net result is that it will be useless information and legal kaos. Also it exposes Rogers for lawsuits. They have money, loads of money and they dont like giving it away to people who can easily sue them for slander when they are wrongly reviewed on the Rogers site.

    2) Only failures or “suckers” will subscribe to the referral model here or even advertize on the site. When they don’t get the leads they expect they will stop paying and this will die. It will therefore have some initial success then quickly die. Everybody in sales of any kind would love to just pay a website or sombody to send them profitable leads. It is way easier than all the smoozing and calling and advertizing and working and volunteer work and getting referalls and social networking and clubs and driving around and lunches and gifts etc etc etc that are really needed to get leads. Just take a nap and when you wake up & 5 leads are in your inbox!!! The problem is that THIS WONT HAPPEN – SORRY.

    • Here is the thing. There is nothing wrong with a business model based on lead gen systems. There are hundreds already out there. I have actually tried some of them years ago. The challenge at that level is the quality of these leads is often ‘very’ weak.

      That said, by putting your focus on all the available sales, marketing (online, guerilla marketing, viral, brand, email, etc…), strategic, partnership, referral systems, rewards programs, business alliances, web tactics and improving every area through insightful innovations you can continue to increase your market share to the point that none of this will ever matter.

      RealtorToolKit on Twitter – Kevin

      • Well said Kevin. A lead is a lead no matter where it comes from. We receive them from our websites, our brokerage and Company websites, and realtor.ca. Some are hot and some are cold. It doesn’t cost us anything to follow up with them. Why would Zoocasa’s leads be any different yet we’d have to pay for them. I agree if we just do all the things you mentioned above our business will grow organically.

  39. How fitting…..CREA has posted and is paying ROGERS for “How REALTORS Help” Ads.

    So as of today your dues, in if even in some limited finite form, are now paying Dale Lawerence.

    And anyone who does not think sh_t is about to hit the fan, really should start looking for a new career tomorrow.

  40. How deep do they intend to dig inot Your pocket,

    They already want your cell phone business, your home phone business, your TV advertising Dollar plus revenue from all their advertisers on their web site who also want into your pocket.

    Now they want you to dig real deep and take a BIG PIECE of the income you need to pay for the rest.

    All you little people, who did not think you should have your own site, who thought they were so wonderful with their aggregator site, will soon be paying through the nose for something you helped to build by submitting your listings to their site.

    • BoooooooCasa! I couldn’t say it any better than this “Former Broker”, we tried to get the brokers/agents 15 years ago to understand that they own the data for their listings and they choose to send the data to MLS, therefore they can decide where it gets published. But everyone “trusts” the Boards and MLS so why change to a private MLS system? Rogers maybe the reason! Or will Brokers wait until it’s too late, probably, which is too bad.
      The listing contract states that the agency can market the property for the owner wherever, now based on our collective choice we use the MLS (Boards/CREA) who publish or data thru mls.ca, a not for profit system open to every business model. All the listing info is there thanks to all the agencies sending the data to MLS, so anyone with a broker license can set up any business model and use the data. All fair competition.
      So how will Rogers affect your business in the future, based on who they have chosen to lead their business model “transparent” to use their word, it’s pretty obvious that it will force down your services fees or commissions in a very BIG way! Rating agents service is just a smoke screen, all agents have to compete for business and show their testimonials anyways. The real scare is – How do you like Rogers using your listing data to charge you a referral on your business, not to mention what your fees will end up being for doing all the work and taking all the risk, nice deal. So sit around a wait to see what happens like before “because this model won’t work” Rogers doesn’t have the money and smarts (sic), let’s just keep working with our head in the sand, sounds like a good plan, for Rogers anyways!

  41. The “public” is simply “not protected” by this new business module.

    Hire your Full Time Full Service Realtor who has the experience to manage the biggest investment one will ever make.

    Another “greed” business module!

  42. Dale’s track record proves everything.

    All these Property guys, Realty Sellers, FSBO account for less than 5% of total real estate transactions. So you are left with 95%.

    So fellow Professional Realtors just ignore these fly by guys and do what you are good in doing and be Happy!

    May be good idea to cancel all the connection with Rogers when possible.

    • Agreed! Get out their and sell some real estate and build your relationships with your clients. As a broker of Recod and a liscenced realtor for over 27 years, technology comes and goes by the minute but the relationship you have with your clients should never. The mark of any great realtor is the ongoing relationship with their past clients. It’s a marathon not a sprint.

  43. I think Rogers will pull from the 80% not making money. Brokerage houses don’t get 25% from their agents, why would Rogers think the masses would want to pay them 25% and then still have to pay their brokerages as well. Once clearly explained to clients what they are getting with this model, most clients will simply see it as they are being sold to the highest bidder, not the most qualified. This should make it easier to stand out. I will be canceling my Rogers phone for sure. Not just because of this but, this is a brick in the decision. I think it the end, I will be thanking Rogers and Mr. Dale for boasting my business and removing the bottom out of the competition.

  44. My Real Estate business is operating via Rogers mobile, Rogers tablet, Rogers cable, Rogers internet, Rogers e-mail.
    Do you think that Rogers/Zoocasa could and will screen our e-mails, calls, web sites and business habits for their benefits?

  45. What a marriage made in heaven. Old Lawrence and the sweet people at Rogers. Can’t think of a more fitting pairing. Rogers can’t seem to own enough (avarice personified) and Dale has never seen a situation that he can’t exploit. Funny how quietly and quickly his dream Business closed down when Rogers came along and offered him a cushy deal. Talk about selling out. So my question is – would you REALLY want someone like that representing your interests in ANY transaction? Except maybe getting rid of those old Toronto Maple Leaf hockey cards that have been sitting in your basement for ever. But then again, I guess you would want to do that yourself and save some commission – right? What a Gong Show!

  46. There’s a lot of irony in a guy who has ‘fought’ for fair competition, teams up with a company that thumbs its nose at fair competition every single day. Rogers likely has the intent of absorbing the mls system, as they have the financial clout to do so, and CREA is corrupt enough to sell it to them.

    If Dale can look himself in the eye every night, and see a person of virtue looking back, well then maybe he is creative enough to head this creepshow.

  47. Easy enough to remove your profile (if you made the mistake of signing up a while ago).

    Just send an email to [email protected] with your full name and email address (must be sent from address you used to sign up).

    Never understand how anyone could submit their hard earned listings to a site that will turn around and then expect to be paid a referral fee to get the buyers that that are interested in the listings submitted by Realtors for free- now that is not smartest business practice!!!

  48. Oh boy…too much to write:
    1. Lawrence Dale should have his Licenced revoked and countersued for a tremendous amount of money wasted, time wasted and the volume of bad publicity to the Real Estate profession.
    2. Zoocasa – they should be very careful – they have been in trouble already…
    3. Rogers – well in a land of freedom and enterprise you are allowed to do what you wish, but if you want people to be transparent then Lawrence Dale should be transparent as well…just saying.

    Happy Selling,

    • I totally agree Michael. Like Doug Hannan’s comment below, I would like to cancel all my accounts with Rogers – ipad, Iphone, home phoneline, cable TV too.

      Lawrence was offering $2 on MLS to buyer’s agents on his listings, now he believes full time and full brokerage services???

      I have no respect for Rogers, no interest to connect with Zoocasa.

      Amanda Xie
      Coldwell Banker Terrequity Realty, Brokerage

  49. I will be cancelling my contract with Rogers Mobile, Rogers High Speed Internet and Rogers Cable TV. and will NEVER deal with Zoocasa. I don’t know Lawrence Dale personally but have been watching his act with amusement for a long time. If it wasn’t him it would be some other knucklehead so it really doesn’t matter.

    Anyway, everbody get back to selling houses and doing a great job for your customers!!

  50. After reading this im heading out to cancel my Rogers contract ,TV and 3 Cell phone , it will cost me a few bucks,but that ok, TO hell with you Roger . I hope all other Realter do the same

    • We collectively represent a significant amount of Rogers Business. If there is a mass move away from them they may get the message to stick with their core business and stop making pathetic attempts to get into a business they have no way of bringing value or expertise.

      • Apparently Fibre optic from Bell is going to devastate cable as a TV delivery service …rogers is diversifying in anticipation I think.
        These “referrals” from-registered-broker-supplied listings is a model borrowed from the USA (I think Microsoft even attempted it… But the American market collapsed)
        Dale IS smart ….IS an opportunity-seeker, an entrepreneur, and a sharp litigator who is in the real estate brokerage business …but not “of it” (to borrow a phrase)
        As an oldtimer I am confronted(& often confounded) every day with new web-based tools and gizmos – some fail, some are ahead of their time and some become instant standard practises.
        Time will tell … Don’t be threatened, don’t make any business decisions when you are mad, just do your work, your way …

  51. ZOOCASA…. Don’t Participate and they will go away!!
    The public should be leery of a media giant getting involved in Real Estate – they do it for one reason only… GREED!!

  52. If an agent is good, they are busy and making a decent living and won’t want to pay for leads through this service. Sadly, there will be many borderline agents – those barely squeaking by – who will sign up and gladly pay for referrals because they have nothing else on the go. So the public who uses this service will think they will be working with top agents but will get referred to inept or inexperienced agents, further denigrating their opinion of Realtors.

    • Well SAID David, customers should know being on Zoocasa does not provide them automatic rating for top agents. Rogers should make big, bold disclaimer on top of hte banner on the site and tell their clients how they get these agents- because Rogers get paid.

      Amanda Xie

    • I’ve been in the business for 24 years and have seen many lead generating businesses come and go. I’ve yet to talk to one agent who has not regretted paying for the “qualified” leads they received. Zoocasa’s leads will be no better than the ones you receive already through your Company, Brokerage and personal websites. But you will have to pay for them. What a concept.

  53. Balderdash!

    Its nothing to do with rate your agent, its nothing to do with competing with MLS and nothing to do with Dale.

    This is Rogers, a huge corporation and deal with numbers and returns to shareholders. Dale is controversial and can create a big hooplaah with the press. Thats what they want, so more people know, rate you agent works tremendously for thier marketing.

    Once they begin they will literally own the largest referral system in Canada. Do the math folks, how many referrals can they do a year. To get your lead pay our referral fee and at what 25%, 20% even 5%!

    A huge cash cow for Rogers without ever leaving the office.

  54. First off, Rate your Realtor was a great idea with bad follow through. Our “representatives” have fallen to the fear mongers once again.
    My concern with Rogers is the same as Brian’s above.. What is the long term goal of this corporation. It cannot simply to be to set up a referral system. Google Zoocasa to see what their current platform is, you will see a content stealing system pandering to for sale by owners. Now providing sales information to the general public. The concern should involve privacy and be how much information is this system going to provide to the public? If Rogers joins boards across canada they will likely open up the private realtor mls system and information to the public with exposing our clients private information to the masses. It does not matter who is running it.

    • Well Ms. Beatty it is nice to see that your in depth research has turned up the perfect person to spearhead your latest adventure, namely Lawrence Dale. It is also nice to know that this same research indicates that only three requirements are necessary to meet your high standardof excellence to qualify for your program….1) a real estate licence 2) a pulse and 3) enough money to advertise on your site.

      As a Broker I welcome Mr. Dale’s latest incarnation into Real Estate. What a track record this guy has!! I haven’t been witness to such a purveyance of snake oil since Madoff’s last headline.

      I am going to disown any connection I have to Rogers….television, mobile, everything.

      Bruce Brown, whoever you are, you hit the proverbial nail right on the head!!

  55. Thank you Dale and Rogers for some of the best marketing material I’ve ever found to help me increase my client base!!!

  56. We should be glad that Mr. Dale is “in charge” given his track record, we having nothing to fear. For those Rogers users, this is a great opportunity to switch your services either now or when you’re up for a new package.

  57. This is quite a turn around from an individual who not so long ago articulated traditional Real Estate was NOT the only option. Much money time and effort was spent challenging the status quo. Now apparently the focus is on promoting business for the STATUS QUO.

    Rogers has no skin in the game, Does not pay for the production of any of the information they republish, will sell back to the people who collect the information at a price. They have access to TV magazines and cable to promote its free service have a serious and unfair advantage over Traditional agents.

    Variations of this business model have already been tried and tested with very little success because its not the core of what Rogers does. Canada Trust, Royal Trust and other banks all abandoned this model in the 80’s. Rogers is a cable company. Perhaps it should continue to concentrate on that.

    • Indeed!
      Internet Adage:
      If you don’t pay to use a website (load listings in this case) “you” are the product.

  58. Agents should always view any site that mimics realtor.ca as a competitor. Collectively we all own realtor.ca – it makes no sense to participate in something that attempts to compete with it. Zoocasa attracted agents by being FREE… and many agents fell for it. Only with the help of agents has Zoocasa been able to become a huge entity. You don’t see craiglist sharing postings with ebay do you? Wake up agents – Zoocasa only grew ’cause you put your listings on there and now they will charge you for leads. If agents stuck to realtor.ca there would be no Zoocasa type sites that could charge you for referrals!

  59. Kerry don’t be naive just 1 unhappy wacky client and your perspective will change, I have had a couple wack job clients who would have loved the opportunity to trash me without merit or reason. A disgruntled buyer will go out of his way to make life difficult something satisfied buyers don’t do!

  60. Good Luck Carolyn Beatty. You’re going to need it with Mr. Dale at the wheel. He just found his next “lawsuit” – I mean partner.

  61. Bizarre that Rogers would hire the worst full service broker around, Lawrence spent years fighting for discount model, his listings and service sucked and his business failed but Rogers want him to lead the way?

  62. All Zoocasa is after is selling products and services to us and the public, all of which are readily available from many other sources.

    If “buying” leads based on repackaging property listings is what works in an agents business model, than zoocasa (like a number of other companies) may be an option for you.

    However the best way not to be affected by these companies, is by ignoring them if that is what agents want.

    As to the concept of posting some form of a rating system for agents, CREA missed the boat, in not understanding that if they declined doing it, somebody else would/will, and now it is outside of “our” control….. Not a very smart move CREA.

    Not really understanding Rogers business decision, to hire somebody, who by their own statements is not liked in organized real estate….. So when they introduce their rating system, how do they think Mr. Dale will be rated and received…
    Seems to me that the reputation of the people we surround ourselves with has a lot to do with the overall perception and reputation of the company and its operations….

    • Peter…CREA is not some strange entity sitting in Ottawa making decisions for REALTORS(R). CREA is us. Registrants in our respective provinces across Canada. It was the REALTOR(R) voting delegates who voted down the motion for RYR.

  63. Probably as good a time as any to cancel all my Rogers subscriptions and move over to Bell. No sense in supporting a company that is intent on ruining my business.

  64. Will Rogers wipe out all Traditional Brick & Mortars Brokerages?
    Brian points out some really good points and I don’t see why Rogers isn’t thinking the same thing.
    They have a Real Estate Division, why not go all out and hire sales reps?
    The referral fees are used as bait to get you used to the system.
    Once you join, there’s no referral fees, low/no monthly fees, low/no splits, virtual office, free cell phone, free home office internet, free cable, free alarm …

    Where do I sign up??? (<—sarcasm)

    Kirby Chan

  65. Once again, it should be obvious and not need mentioning. True top producing agents can generate their own leads and don’t want to pay a hefty 25% referral fee. It’s the masses of low producing hobbiest agents which need to be spoon fed leads by the likes of Zoocasa or MLS.ca websites.
    It’s a shame our industry permits so many part time, multi employed, here for a fast buck agents to get and maintain their licence. This only punishes and disrespects the true full time agents who will be paying the membership dues in bad times as well a good times and cheapens the perception of the industry as a whole.

  66. I thought the rate your Realtor was a great idea. It being voted down just further shows the backwards thinking of an industry afraid of the future. Our industry needs to do everything it can to improve its public image. There are tons of great Realtors who provide exceptional service and a rate your Realtor would help the public see that fact. This is clearly what the public wants. Angies list is a complete business model based on the fact that people want another persons opinion of a potential service provider. I think we should be less concerned with Mr. Dale and more concerned with improving our public image and moving our industry forward.

    • Chris, Rate Your Realtor was a flawed attempt at providing reviews to the general public. The system could have been easily manipulated and provided in inaccurate assessment of any Realtor. I agree that we need to improve our public image but Rate Your Realtor is not the tool to accomplish that. I have my very own Rate Your Realtor, it is called personal referrals.

      • I agree – have read some awful “reviews” from nuts who have nothing else to do – also speak of nuts – congrats Rogers..nothing more need be said..

      • Our company has been using a Customer Satisfaction program for over 10 years, and every client is sent a survey to complete. We have maintained a 98% Customer Satisfaction rating over those years.

        Why should organized real estate have a Rate Your Realtor scheme? Makes more sense for a brokerage to do that on their own.

  67. There is so much I want and could say about snake oil salesmen, but instead I think I will just change my cell phone provider and everything else Rogers has it’s tentacles into.

    Miles G.

  68. if you can’t beat ’em…join ’em!!
    What happened to your model Lawrence? Now your snuggling up to REALTORS(r) what gives?

  69. Think about this Canadian Realtors:

    Beatty’s concluding statement is “Referral fees are subject to negotiation.”

    Of course they are!

    The more of you who join up, who try to buy your way into this scheme, the higher will be your referral fees going forward as more and more of you jump onto this neat pyramidical bandwagon in search of favouritism by Rogers. It’s a pure numbers game, just like the numbers game CREA plays with its revolving door, here today, gone tomorrow, policy of luring stupid wannabe Realtor candidates with more money in hand for CREA dues than brains.

    Beatty says that Rogers will not hire its own agents… ‘yet’. Rogers will do just that when they have enough ‘professionals’ within their sphere of influence to allow Rogers to steal who they think are the good guys away from their original brokerages. I don’t blame Rogers for trying to corral the cream of the crop for its own advantage, without having to have had to develop these professionals in the first place. It would be a good business move for its shareholders after all. Shareholders, for the most part, have no functioning consciences. They just have high expectations regarding profitable investments.

    I wonder if current brokerages will impart their dim views over this obvious (at least to my mind) attempt to co opt their best Realtors with lures of sure fire leads for ever increasing bribes? This could become an addiction. Interventions could be messy. Will the real pros even bite?

    I figure that about 20% to 30% of Canadian Realtors are real pros. Imagine if you will what would happen if Rogers managed to capture most of them, because you may rest assured that Rogers has already got that scenario all figured out.

    Rogers… “Join us now loyal referralists as we begin hiring. Forget about those former referral fees. You will now automatically receive referrals, and we will only charge you slightly less than you are paying for desk fees, admin. services etc. at your current brokerage… at least for this year. In addition, Rogers will ‘give’ you a favoured commission split arrangement, provided that you in turn sell Rogers’ products to your clients as they close their purchases/sales. We could even arrange for you to earn exclusive bonus points, arranged on a confidential, locked-in contractual manner of course, whereby you will be able to avail ‘yourselves’ of our many extraneous products as you enrich us… I mean yourselves… with your efforts out there in the field with those consumer dummies… I mean… loyalists. We cold even sing Rogers songs, all together in the offices in the mornings, before you go out there into the real estate wars, like Kirby vacumn cleaner door-to-door sales folks are made to do before they thereafter trundle out to sell vacums with free gifts of cheap, bendable knife-and-fork sets as bribes to get past the front doors of suckers, and we all know that a sucker is born every minute, don’t we my prostitutes… I mean pros!”

    “See how nicely we are smiling!… and Lawrence ‘really, really, really’ believes in this model, especially since that silly other one that he only ‘really, really’ believed in was not believed in by enough consumer dummies… er… I mean loyalists to make him rich… fast.”

    “Please make our shareholders happy, so that Rogers may take its just place in the world… rulers of the media universe, because, he who controls the media controls the dummies… loyalists.”

    Don’t go for it pros. Let the riff-raff have a go at it instead.


    • Wow! have not seen this much activity on an announcement/article since a couple of articles in the past : SPIS with Lou Radomsky and my take on ” Commission Cutters!~how to deal with them”
      On the weekend, and this is still the weekend, I started to read the volumes of rhetoric pros and cons about Dale and Zoocasa and the Referral system by Rogers. It gave me the bent to write my April article. and the gist of it is mainly about what experience is really worth to a consumer.
      Would an experienced agent, in light of all of Mr.Dale’s expertise and experiences, want to buy a listing at 25%-35%? hmmm, let me see. If after all expenses that an experienced Agent absorbs, would he/she really want that referral. Sure, some eager Agents starting out will buy into it. and after the end of the day, will realize what his net is after all expenses are taken out of it.
      And who at Rogers will determine who is “entitled” to the referral:? C/mon guys, this will not change your career one iota. not one. Keep brushing up on your skills and keep developing your data bank~~see my laat months article !
      happy Holiday Weekend Sincerely From My Desk As I See It~

  70. I totally agree with NSRealtor…. great response!!!!
    I’d just like to add to that, that the membership voted down the “Rate Your Realtor” idea,(thank goodness!!!) because good REALTORS® do not depend on rating systems for referrals, they get them from satisfied customers!!! The rating system is flawed, because ANYBODY can manipulate the remarks, which cannot be contested by innocent REALTORS®

  71. Just a reminder, folks, that we won’t approve comments with personal attacks!! Please keep your comments about the issues.

    Jim Adair
    REM Editor

  72. Guess Dales discount house didn’t pan out…so now he has jumped on rogers bandwagon and is out shopping for traditional agents..if you can’t beat ’em..join ’em..eh lawrency baby!!
    One other this if CREA hadn’t caved in we wouldn’t be having this conversation….Remember BOHICA?? Bend over here it comes again!!!

    • My guess the highest rated licensee will be the one paying the highest referral fee, once again adding to the cost of doing business. Like any other goods or service the additional cost will ultimately be paid for by the consumer.

  73. Ah, it seems like Mr. Dale has a really horrible track record for making anything really work. If he approached me with a business idea, I don’t think I could run fast enough in the opposite direction. .. And the huge irony here is him saying “We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, traditional agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.” .. Wasn’t Mr. Dale the self-appointed Messiah of the For Sale By Owner movement ?!! .. What a crock !! Mr. Dale is after one thing, and one thing only, as much money as Mr. Dale can suck out of anyone who is stupid enough to have anything to do with his self-serving business models. Good luck Rogers, maybe this new venture will succeed at making the public hate Rogers more than they already do! .. Lawrence Dale, what a piece of work!!

  74. “Dale, who championed a discount brokerage with RealtySellers. and later partnered with for-sale-by-owner company PropertyGuys.com, says his focus at Zoocasa is now “at the other end of the spectrum. We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, ***traditional*** agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.”

    We are looking for professional agents who want to provide a full level of service to customers…”

    Is now at the other end of the spectrum?

    Full services, traditional agent?

    What am I missing in this picture, I thought the FSBO route was what Dale unequivocally believed in?

    • PED:

      I wonder how the producer at CTV’s CANADA AM national morning TV show now feels seeing as how Dale was numerous times championed/interviewed on that show to promote Realtysellers et al, shamelessly extolling the virtues of his FSBO Robin Hood-like dream to help consumers save big bucks at the expense of those nasty traditional Realtor models by paying ‘him’ up-front dollars for a highjacked MLS listing to go along with a do-it-yourself set of ten dollar signs and some otherwise free-via-the-internet forms, and… oh yes, I almost forgot, some generic advice from the end of a telephone by a sales ‘professional’ sitting at a desk in a basement somewhere?

      I wonder if the ‘professionals’ got severance pay?

      I wonder if CTV CANADA AM will go for it all over again? Probably.

      Dale is simply the start-up guy for Beatty’s vision. What self-respecting professional Realtor will cozy up in the same bed with a lawyer with the name Dale (only half of my name LOL) who just awhile ago was trashing same, one and all, and who still continues with his hoped-for money generating suit against TREB?

      Always a pleasure to respond to your posts PED.


      • Hi Brian and Ped,
        You know what struck me as comical in today’s REM offerings at the Dale story? and it seems that in the theory that the cream always rises to the top, that these words, and I quote from that article today, prove
        once again that the public wants, needs, and approves of the old-fashioned method of doing real estate business perhaps; Mr. Dale says: “We are providing consumers with the opportunity to hook up with a quality, experienced, traditional [sic] agent. Our research shows that is what most people are looking for.”

        (Is that slang-talk, street language ??? “hook-up?”) The English language allows for all sorts of
        variable definition of terms when referring to street-talk; perhaps it would be good if REALTORS(r), as professionals, were a little careful with the words they use: “deal,” and maybe such terms should be left to TV programs …and game shows.

        Perhaps Mr. Dale has been “born-again” and has “seen the light.” It’s sort of sad, because he is no dummy, presents well, a soft-spoken,
        clean-cut fellow, and one can perhaps see why he is so-believeable. He could sell ice to an Eskimo. At least he had the good sense to concede
        that the public really wants and needs to do business in the “traditional” format. There was a P-guys’ listing in our area, recently, for months. No takers. Then listed with trad-company and it was gone in no
        time. High-end property that had “pre-paid” and then had to pay again.

        Just one example of what Mr. Dale alludes to as the public doesn’t want to do business that way. Who better to speak to that subject than the expert that he is. I wish him well in his new suit of clothes. Can the
        emperor’s clothes be seen?

        Only someone of “means” could have survived the costs involved in doing business in the manner in which Mr. Dale prevailed. Those with lesser
        means understand how costly this business can be and never would have survived the spoils.

        Carolyne L

      • Hey Brian, to answer your question about CTV, they are owned by Bell. Question for you, did Bell not try this same system years ago that Rogers is attempting?

        • Hi Brad:

          It had temporarily slipped my mind that Bell owns CTV when I hurriedly wrote my comment. Thanks for reminding me.

          Fraser Beach, while working for Dale as Broker at Realtysellers way back when, illegally scraped MLS data to be uploaded onto Bell’s site, if memory serves me correctly. The difference now with Rogers is that Rogers is attempting a ‘legal’ end-run with Dale quarterbacking the play, at least until Dale gets mysteriously faux-sacked by the defensive linebackers, being the no-show Realtors who stay away from this scheme in droves. Rather than getting sacked by being overwhelmed by tons of attacking humanity, Dale will simply fall forward, flat on his face, as he prerpares for the onslaught, which never comes.

          I wonder if Rogers has hired Dale on a pay-per-performance basis? If so, he can not successfully lay a lawsuit on Rogers for back-pay when he gets traded… again.

          Maybe he should then just try his luck in the minors.


          • Fraser had his own firm …he had a deal w Bell for a similar (albeit ancient version) of an alternate listing and advertising and referral “service”.

    • Some of you may be upset at what I am going to say, others will completely understand and concur.

      First off I believe the public’s ability to use our MLS is wrong. Furthermore accessing historical data is basically stealing our intellectual property. Nothing is stopping anyone from making their own rival MLS so go right ahead. I think that when lawsuits start flying and rules need to be enforced that it will be evident that it is not easy to run a professional real estate association and the model of cheap and free only works on a small scale.

      HOWEVER: The people who I have to begrudgingly call my fellow Realtors is a joke, and if the standard of what we are selling remains as low brow as it is, then the public is just as well served by Dale – Rogers and Zoocasa.

      The lack of knowledge and lack of respect between us as agents is staggering. Time and time again I am running across so called ‘full service listings’ that are so incomplete that in the end my buyer clients are simply questioning the value of our system.
      When my buyer clients are chasing basic information and simple paper work – what is the value of that listing over Property Guys and Comfree??? Our commissions are secure is one value.

      Buyers and Sellers do not distinguish their representatives – we are Realtors, we are judged as a whole. If you disrespect my clients they see the whole system is not working.

      I have had as much as a good experience with selling Comfree listings than the poor excuse for listings I see everyday. I just as well rather work with the Seller directly than have to BEG listing agents for basic information (ie: what is the rental company for the water tank, Is there a survey, what is the sqft stated on the MPAC statement.)

      I for one cannot wait for the day that the buying public can truly qualify agents on a balance of real merits. Can someone come up with and App for this please?!

      The standards are low and we get paid in heaps. That is the truth.
      You can have a PhD in homes and housing and be a solid salesperson, and savvy marketer with no education – but who is ‘popular’ for some reason will outsell you.

      As long as our standards remain so low – Mr. Dale and Rogers have a solid leg to stand on.

      • I agree with many of the comments that ROGERS’ decision to expand into REAL ESTATE BROKERAGE will turn out to be a huge mistake. If they think they can operate a brokerage the way they operate their phone/cable company, they will be in for a huge surprise!

        Have you ever tried to reach their customer service…average 15 minutes on hold? Do you really think the real estate client will wait 15 minutes to speak to a real estate agent?

        Smell the coffee, Mr Rogers!

        In my business model, I cooperate but DO NOT give business to my competitors…..GOOD BYE ROGERS cells, cable & internet!

Leave a Reply