The Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB), CREA and 49 individuals named in a $540-million lawsuit launched by Realtysellers have lost an appeal to have the action dismissed. They now have 30 days to file statements of defence with the court.
“CREA spent years trying to avoid filing a defence because they don’t have one,” says Lawrence Dale, president and CEO of Realtysellers. “CREA got TREB and the individuals into this mess. I wonder if TREB will finally do the right thing and expose CREA for what they did.”
The court ruling was handed down on Friday by Justice J. Swinton of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice.
Dale and his cousin Stephen Moranis, a former TREB president, have filed several claims against TREB and CREA over the years relating to Realtysellers, the real estate company they formed in November 2000. The company offered discounted flat fee services. In 2002, TREB enacted new rules that required listing brokers to be involved in the offer negotiation process. Realtysellers sued TREB and filed a complaint with the federal Competition Bureau.
In January 2004, TREB and Realtysellers reached a settlement in which Realtysellers received $700,000 in compensation. TREB changed its rules to allow the flat fee program access to the MLS, and Realtysellers withdrew its complaints to the Competition Bureau, which closed its investigation into the matter.
But Dale and Moranis allege that in 2006, TREB and CREA conspired to force them to close down Realtysellers. CREA implemented new offer negotiation rules in 2007. The Competition Bureau subsequently filed a complaint, which CREA and the bureau settled in 2010 with a 10-year binding consent agreement.
The current $540-million statement of claim names CREA, TREB, and 49 individuals who were TREB or CREA directors or officers at the time, a former CREA president and Treb-Ren ventures, the entity that ran Real Estate News, the board’s now-defunct newspaper. None of the allegations have been proven in court.
In their appeals, TREB and CREA argued that because the lawsuit named the directors and officers personally, it “raises important issues relating to limited liability protection for corporate representatives.” But Justice Swinton says in the ruling: “I disagree, as the claim against these defendants is with respect to their individual actions, rather than their role as officers and directors.”
Dale says: “CREA leaders came up with a plan in 2006 to prevent me from operating. Now almost 50 people who let that happen must answer for letting that happen. They can’t plead ignorance anymore and they are now personally financially responsible.
“The consent agreement was the first step. Winning these motions was the second step. Now no more delays,” says Dale. “As is my right, I have chosen that a jury of common Canadians will decide this action. I am confident such a jury will see how unlawful they have acted and award a huge amount of damages that will teach the industry a lesson that they will never forget. Canadians know how protective this industry has been.”
In a statement, TREB said it is “pleased by comments from the court pointing to the lack of evidence in the case against them.”
TREB says: “The decision of the court was on a procedural matter and no decision has yet been rendered on the merits of the claim. TREB will continue to vigorously defend the proceeding. We are confident that when the court ultimately addresses the merits of the plaintiffs’ claim, it will be rejected by the court.”
CREA said in a statement: “The ruling was procedural and does not affect the fact that CREA still believes that the plaintiff’s claims are without merit and will be rejected by the court at trial.”
I have been following this Realtysellers–Toronto Real Estate Board–Canadian Real Estate Association dust-up for a few years now, and as a member of the consuming public I feel compelled to respond to the allegations made by Realtysellers' officials that negatively reflect on the TREB, the CREA, and all of their officials, both past and present.
Over the next few weeks I will periodically inject snipits of information via this site that will effectually undermine the public assertions of Realtysellers' officials that will fly in the face of Realtysellers' case before the courts, not to mention the Competiton Bureau's seeming ignorance of, or, wanton disregard for, some very pertinent facts regarding this case.
I hope that these posts will be read far and wide, by both the real estate community as well as the public, but possibly, most importantly, by government officials, both bureaucratic and elected in nature, who have a stake in this case.
I begin with public statements made by a former employee of Realtysellers, as quoted within an article first published by Real Estate Magazine, written by Don Procter, during January 2007 entitled: "Realtysellers blames CREA for closure"
Quote: "Pat Agnew, who ran an office for Realtysellers in Windsor from April 2004 to February 2006 says she was upset to hear that the six-year- old discount brokerage blamed proposed changes to the MLS for the company's problems. "That's totally wrong." she says.'"
"Agnew says the company's hard times are more likely the result of its business practices."
"She says she was stung by Realtysellers for a commission and office residuals when she left the company last February. Agnew's attempts to retrieve the money owed her concluded in frustration and undue stress. she told REM. "In the end I didn't get anything and I needed to move on with my life."": End of quote.
Pat's statements seem to suggest that Realtysellers cared more about money inflow than outflow back to their employees who brought the money in in the first place.
My first few information offerings over the next while will simply be reproductions of those offerings that have already been put out there into the public domain, already accessible for those in government who choose to engage themselves enough to find them.
I will simply provide them to the public, free of charge, through this site.
More to follow next week.
Until next time, keep an open mind.
To all licensed real estate sales representatives across Canada:
On March 12th, last, Ross K and I posted comments herein regarding CREA's recent, and not-so-recent, less-than-acceptable behaviours/decisions in favour of , or not, its constituents' interests, being you, the one hundred thousand or so licensed real estate sales representatives under Crea's purview. CREA's actions seem(ed) to be those of an organization whose dominating employees' (they are employees…your employees!) interests are more tied into what others' wishes in high places aspire toward, being absolute control over organized real estate via arm's-length manouvers through CREA people.
It's known as 'kissing ass' for future consideration, or, in the politically correct vernacular, appeasement. Appeasement…for what?…acceptance by the Competition Bureau re 'their' own vs your future concerns vis a vis 'their' comfy jobs in high places…funded by you all in low places?
My response was to Ross's comments. His comments triggered a real- live ticked-off-against-CREA response from me, and I'm not even a member of your business any more!
My request for a response to Ross's veiled suggestion, if one reads his words the way I read them, resulting in my clear suggestion that 'everyone' participate in an on-line referendum of sorts, garnered a record number of thumbs ups/thumbs down overall total clicks, for both Ross's and my comments. The positives/negatives was not the issue; participation was the issue.
Although, up until now, one hundred and six folks have responded (an exceptional level of participation to date on this site), with thanks to those who did respond by the way, it was nevertheless a pathetic showing considering the one hundred thousand potential participants who could have weighed in. So then, I am putting my question to the test once again.
For those who are now reading this, being those caring/interested folks who participated initially, last week and up until today, I implore you to talk this opportunity up amongst everyone within earshot, emailshot, whatevershot, to get them to weigh in on the following question, being:
"Are you in favour of forming a grass-roots coalition with your compatriots across Canada in order to get rid of the current crop driving the CREA train to Nowhere'sville's siding, and to thereupon form a new organization (actually, it should already have been surreptitiously formed by then) staffed with grass-roots volunteers (being via behind-the-scenes, newly elected former front-line real estate sales people of exceptional standing and strong backbones), who will agree to be paid for set timeframes services rendered at less than current salary levels, at the upper tiers of CREA?" Simple question.
Yes? Thumbs Up.
No? Thumbs down.
What matters most is not the raw numbers of Ups or Downs, but raw participatory numbers period.
How else, other than by getting involved, do you expect to get the control of your industry back where it belongs…in your hands! (That is, assuming that you want it there at all.)
Your call.
Again, from what I have borne witness to thus far, I don't expect much.
However, I would love so much to be proved wrong.
Brian F. Martindale
This is not the forum. Nobody in the industry seems to read this online publication. Of those that do, even less seem to feel that they are able to speak out without being condemned and punished for expressing their true feelings. Until we can have an open forum, where we are able to talk freely and stop pretending that everything is OK to satisfy the Real Estate Police and their Overlords – the Fascist Competition Bureau, we may as well just give up.
In the mean time, The Real Estate Industry will continue to fade in the eyes of the public. The Competition Bureau will win because all Realtors are enemies by business. The recent fee for services models will hasten the demise of this once great profession.
The public will not benefit because the consumer is losing all faith in the process. I can only imagine how fees will go up once all of the lawsuits involving self represented clients take hold. I can already hear the complaints from those that were “taken advantage of” by those “slimy” Realtors. Perhaps they should sue the Competition Bureau when they make a bad deal. All the ethics in the world can’t stop human nature and greed. The recent TREB debacle is just the tip of the iceberg.
Meanwhile Canadian Realtors are left without a unified voice and without an association with the balls to protect it. Well done Competition Bureau! Now if we could get those plumbers and mechanics to offer their services for free or have “Realty” wars. Aren’t doctors and Lawyers taking advantage of the public? Can’t everyone just operate on themselves? What will the Competition Bureau do after Real Estate is dead? I heard those Teachers are colluding…. Shame on all those that stood by and allowed this to happen!
Here is a hypothetical moral and ethical dilemma that could face a “fee for service” Sales Associate.
What do “mere poster” representatives do when asked by their frugal clients to show a home with no commission? Do they sell the home for free or for a “flat fee”, happy to have saved their clients money? After all, what is money compared to possessing moral superiority and putting their clients’ interests before their own? Do they negotiate for a “normal” or “more reasonable” commission, or are the bound to their business model? Would they be OK just to charge a flat fee? Would there be any shame if they charged more? How do they justify taking a larger commission based on the preaching of their business model? Do they adjust the “savings clock” on their website to reflect any “regular’ commission income? Why do they not practice what they preach? Are they being hypocrites if they take a higher commission? And how can they be certain that all of their listings are “saving” the average user when other Realtors may have negotiated a commission with their (mere posting) clients?
How happy would they be if every listing on the MLS website offered low or NO commission? I doubt that they would stay in business long. Long live those Realtors who attempt to procure reasonable compensation for their fellow Realtors! No ore very low ($.01) commission companies should be encouraging those that list with higher commission rather than criticizing them. The "new age fee for service" associate's very existence depends on the ability to simultaneously discredit larger commission providing Realtors while secretly benefitting from their existence. The very definition of hypocrisy! It reminds me of the drunken preacher telling his flock to remain sober.
Can the low or no commission firms maintain this business model if the entire industry stopped offering higher commissioned properties altogether? I doubt it. If they really wanted to practice what they preached, they would publically denounce all larger commissions and refuse to accept ANY, Until that day, they will be seen as hypocrites and could be seen as shameful opportunists, not the benevolent saviors that they claim to be. Could it be that the Emperor is wearing no clothes?
Many such discount agents in our market area offer to rebate a portion or the selling commission to the buyer, sometimes more than 50% of that selling commission. What it has resulted in, as a business model, is these agents telling their buyers that they are happy to rebate as long as the buyer locates the property. The agent, or some other agent sets up the search via e-mail and then when the buyer has located the property they'd like to buy (by way of attending open houses and calling listing agents for showings) they agree to call the discunt/rebate agent to write the offer in order to obtain the rebate. I have personally had this happen many times, showing property I have listed to other realtor's clients. The buyers have been coached, when asked "if they are working with an agent?" to say they are not, in order to entice the listing agent to go through with the showing, only to have the other realtor pop up at the last minute to take over writing the offer. It raises all kinds of questions, arising for example from the buyer's agent liability. There will probably be occasions where the selling agent has never seen the property before the offer is written, and if so I don't know how that agent would handle the potential liability for not having seen the property. They will be instances where a simple building inspection clause will not cut it, and additional protection for the buyer will be required i.e. geotechnical issues, contamination issues etc. If that agent has not or is not able to defer liability by use of some mechanism, claims will surely rise against our E&O. Why would a buyer sign away their rights to professionalism and competence expected from their agent only to save a couple of thousand dollars. I bet many won't, otherwise why use a realtor at all. Look forward to higher E&O fees in your future, to cover increased claims based on our insurers deeming us a higher risk group due to agents involved with mere postings, agents who never see homes they list and write offers on, and realty companies from out of the area not being familiar with local rules & regs. Buyers and sellers will probably be asked to sign some kind of release, so will a judge accept agents trying to circumvent liability arising from the way they do business? I guess we will find out soon enough.
By the way, there are ZERO violations on Seller Invites website. Your lack of Alberta Law is evident Ross K. Stating that you saved millions versus traditional brokerage is perfectly legal as any Lawyer knows. The courts have established that the common commission offered in a region is a set amount in cases where commission was not indicated in a contract. Here in Alberta that is 7 percent first 100,000 and 3 percent balance.
Here is the RECA advertising standards link. http://www.reca.ca/industry/content/publications-…
Please reference page 17 as it specifically addresses this serious issue.
"Common Commission"? I thought that concept was wiped out by the courts. The concept of 7%/100K and 1.5%/Bal seems to be brought up when it suits your “statistical” needs. Taking into account the appeal of the “new” business models which charge very little for selling homes, should that old average also not be adjusted? To compare your sales to the rest of the MLS sales using the (old) standard commission rate is misleading and incorrect. After all, haven’t almost all sellers seen the light of your superior model and discarded the antiquated higher commission models? Please reflect this stat on your website or remove it.
All commissions are negotiable. To even hint that they are not is contrary to the law. Claiming, or suggesting that you are alone in charging lower "fees" is misleading. Com Free also utilizes this misleading business practice. To make outrageous claims like "our company saved X amount of dollars” is difficult to prove or disprove, and as Mr. Ross K. so astutely pointed out – therefore deemed illegal. It also paints all other "Real Estate" companies as greedy and overpaid. I doubt that the Alberta Government (even RECA) would challenge the omnipotent Competition Bureau, so you (and com Free) are able to continue posting this distorted and erroneous statistic. Higher standards indeed!
When the Competition Bureau of Canada waded in against the Canadian Real Estate Association, they knew they weren't taking on a corporation with a seasoned Board of Directors, or shareholders – any number of which who could've used their influences any number of ways to protect the rights of the corporate entity. However that is not to say that Canadian business' in general doen't have a vested interest in all this, because they do.
Previous forums here on REM have reinforced and confirmed that REALTORS are in fact considered professionals, in a legal sense. Consequently CREA must have an obligation to take steps and enact rules from time to time that are consistent with professionalism, and those liability laws that would relate to professionalism, or more to the point, to a lack thereof. So, the question in law is to what extent can one dilute or diminish professionalism in the name of advancing competition, and the answer to that question is a matter for the courts – not the Competiton Bureau (bully) of Canada.
No consumer is any more obliged to use professional Real Estate to sell their home or property, then we are to go to a burger joint to get a good cheese burger. Yet our franchises or trademarks are at the mercy of those that should be subserviant to them – as is the case when someone buys into, say, a franchised burger joint. Every Canadian business has a legal right to protect their trademark entities. When CREA, TREB and Realtysellers go to court any legal precedent will have broad reaching effects, and the Court will know this, and at that point Ms. Aiken will be squaring off in the real world, and I can't wait!
A friend of ours who had sold a home using sellers invite had nothing but great things to say about them. He also noted how surprised he was at how the realtors he interviewed said no one would show their home if he was to list with them, but apparently they had tons of showings and sold 8 days later! its no surprise to me how vicious realtors can be, seems my buddy made a good choice and ill be referring sellers invite for sure!
There are good and bad people in every walk of life and perhaps you should look at history before painting everyone with the same brush.
I am very disappointed that any one should believe that just because there are a few people that feel it necessary to pressure someone to work with them, everyone in the same venue would do the same. Any good real estate sales person should be client -driven in their customer service because without clients they would not be able to make a living.
There is plenty of room out there for everyone and real estate sales people are there for those people who need assistance and would like their service.
Where did your buddy get his data in terms of a listing price. If he used the MLS data, then most of the those homes were sold by realtors who co-operate with buying agents. These inflated values are due to maximum exposed properties which in some cases generated record prices. Most fsbo dont sell fast and dont hav mutliple offer situations. In fact your friend should be using those types of data to price his home then to use data from MLS.
If it all came to an end tomorrow for realtors who co-operate, then i see sellers like your buddy suffering the most. Prices will average down because there is no middlemen pushing the action. So in a few years what will happen is your buddy will start to use home values that are lower and hence he will make less when he sells.
Take alook at pre-construction condos vs resale condos model. It is now more expensive to buy pre-construction condos then resale condos. Most of the developers co-operate handsomely (better then resale) with buying agents. When agents get paid good things happens. Projects are sold in record time and This is turns helps projects to sell out in no time. developer realize this. If they thought agents are useless as you indicate then they wouldnt be stupid enough to pay 4% to 5% in commission.
fred grow up and smell the toast burning. your busines model is flawed and hyprocritical. You need buying agents to push the action or else prices will start to fall.
Fred, if you can respond to my last reply about how agents push the action and how your buddy benefited from data that was generated by co-operating agents vs data from fsbo's then i may consider quitng my profession and becomming a taxi driver because i too will use sellers invite.
if you can't then you are a moron and are here just to capitalize on your B.S that you feed uneducated sellers. Also please give them THE CORRECT DATA on FSBO as that would be unethical of you.
Let me re-assure all who are concerned about the actions of and eventual outcome of Realtysellers and CB matters. The only and biggest problem that I see with what's taking place is the enormous legal and settlement costs that both TREB and CREA will be faced with when all is said and done.
Insofar as the private for sale issue and all companies involved in the cut-rate commission deals , I personally see all this as little to no threat to the real estate industry.
Consumers will continue to trust and rely on the services of registered real estate people as the better way to buy or sell real estate.
The above will happen especially when consumers get the real taste of all the negatives that will be associated with private for sales and with doing business with commission cut-rate firms.
So, don't worry, be happy and go out there and sell a house or 2 this St Patrick's weekend.
Heinz I'm shocked that you would enter a public forum such as this and spew anti competitive rhetoric as you have and carry yourself as you have, I guess being a member of a professional organization means little to you.
But what really shocks me is how you trash my company, myself and my clients and yet you do the very same thing!
That's right…after looking at the four listings you have, one of which is your very own property in which you are only offering 1% to cooperating REALTORS! As well you have a second one offering less than what's deemed traditional, and the one in which you are actually offering more than normal has been on the market unsold since 2008??
How can you throw stones at me when you're doing it yourself? and please don't use the excuse that you're struggling financially because there are thousands of sellers out there who owe more on their home than it's worth… the ones you say should have to pay full fees. Now I don't think there's aother Heinz K out there but if there is then accept my apologies in advance.
And as for Ross K, don't think you have the copyright on agents who have nothing to better do but seek fault and complain, I deal with you guys on a weekly basis. Like I've said before, you have a lot to say but little to offer.
Rod Thompson, Founder
SellerInvite.com
Don't waste your time justifying your model to these fools Rod. You are speaking to sheep, who excel at towing the company line.
Sadly, I think most actually believe in the nonsense they preach.
Thanks for checking out my website Rod! I am shocked that you did not mention the MLS numbers to my listing here. Yes, I do have a listing that offers 1% commission. It is a home that I own. As an owner, not a Realtor, I have purposely lowered the commission to discourage other Realtors from selling it based on my logic that a better commissioned listing, offering the exact same type of home (in this case a townhome), would take longer to sell. It is also a test market for me so that I can embrace the new "changes" that the Orwellian Competition Bureau has foisted upon us. I also have another "lower" commission listing. I have mentioned before that I do not begrudge lower commission listings, and the fact that I enter into such contracts should prove that I do not believe in “price fixing”. In a free market, price fixing is not possible. It is just one of the evil demons that the Competition Bureau and those that prefer to litigate rather than sell real estate conjure up in order to cleanse the “profession” of evil.
I “trashed” your company because I felt that the business model that you started has made all of our jobs harder. I correctly saw the eventual inclusion of Com Free as the logical outcome of your companies’ business practice. That is where the anger comes from. It may well be the model of the future. I do not have to pretend to enjoy or agree with it. I do regret saying what I did. It was over the top. I was playing the Devil’s Advocate. I wish I had never posted on this site. I do not make a habit of it. I wish that all my comments would be deleted. I do not “hate” Seller Invite”, nor do I “hate” you Mr. Thompson. I just hate seeing listings with no commissions on the MLS site. Perhaps I am alone in admitting it publically. How do we improve if we do not admit our true feelings? I agree that they have a right to be there, but forgive me if I do not take great pleasure in this outcome. I take issue with the lack of a forum to discuss this as “professionals”. I thought the purpose of this forum was to get our honest thoughts and frustrations out in the open to discuss them. Grumbling in our sales meetings has no affect. I am sure that the “ethics police” will knock on my door. I made the mistake of thinking that my comments, once “moderated” would be deemed acceptable. I may be wrong.
It bothers me that mentioning that a majority of listings offer a certain amount of commission is somehow construed as “price fixing”. If I pull all of the listings in my client’s neighborhood and 95% of them offer a higher commission, and this information is presented to the client, am I being dishonest? Unethical? It is a statement of fact. With the new culture of silence, we are not able to discuss the issues with any level of honesty. I object to not being able to express my opinion without it being seen as being in collusion or guilty of some other ethical “thought” crime. I am stating my opinion about a profession that I have chosen, which is changing in front of my eyes, one which admonishes those that speak out against it.
I should be able to say that I do not like listings that offer me $.01 commission. I know that I am not alone in this. In a BUYER’s market, the seller should be bending over backwards in order to get buyers. It is my opinion that they should try to create as big an incentive as possible. I attempted to point out that I feel that placing the onus on my clients, the buyers, to pay me a commission is ludicrous. This comes from my clients, not me. It is common sense. Human nature and free will still exist in the real world, even if we collectively pretend that it does not in order to maintain our professional illusion. From what I have gleaned, most Realtors who use Buyer Brokerages now add a clause that discloses to the buyer that they will not show any properties that do not cover the full cost of their commission. Fact, not collusion. As more and more non-commissioned listings come about, more Buyer Brokerage Contracts will be required. The illusion of a level playing field will be upheld, while the dirty secret of an emerging two tiered listing system remains hidden.
When asked by a client what the difference between a “fee for service” company’s offering and my model, is it price fixing or anti-competition for me to mention that Realtor’s get more excited about higher commissions? Should it be illegal/unethical for me to mention to my potential listing clients that some Realtors have a policy that they do not show lower commissioned homes to any potential listing clients? Am I to lie or omit this detail in order to be ethical? How do I reconcile this with my desire to be “honest” with my clients? To me, an omission is the same as a lie. My Fiduciary Duties feel like they have been run over by my Ethical obligations. Navigating these dilemmas requires a great deal of Orwellian Doublethink at the very least.
It is not Realtor’s putting their needs in front of their client’s when they “embellish” a home’s shortcomings. It is human nature. It is done without thinking. That is my point. Not even men/women of God and Policemen could achieve this “ethical” ideal that our profession pretends exists. Most Realtor’s are type “A” aggressive personalities. To say that we can become superhuman altruistic beings is laughable. It is an ideal which few, if any of us (or any human being) can attain. We are businessmen who are made to follow a code which is unachievable. We all nod and agree in public that we are the most benevolent businessmen on the earth. What hogwash. Then we are obligated to police each other. The wolves that tear at each other’s throats on a daily basis are portrayed as gentle lambs. Our public persona is an unobtainable illusion. Let’s stop pretending to be saints. The public is not fooled, and our reputations as Realtors have never been lower.
The trend now dictates that all Realtors sign Buyer Brokerage Contracts with potential buyers. I have been told that they usually include a clause that discloses that the buyers will only be shown of homes with commissions that meet the Buyer Brokerage Agreement’s commission rate. If this trend continues, the reality of a two tiered system is the real threat. My mention of a second class listing is not hate spewing, but fact. The rift is very real. No amount of Orwellian policing will stop this trend. Any prudent and honest Realtor should be forced to prove that they disclosed the fact that some potential buyers could be excluded from seeing their properties if no commission is offered. To imply that their listing is on equal footing with all the others is misleading. It is just the kind of thing that we “professionals” claim to be above doing.
Well said Heinz. I agree that the rules concerning what we are not allowed to say when discussing competitors or competition within the industry challenges our ability to be honest when selling our services.
You’re right also about a two-tiered system – it’s already here. Many within the industry and the public who clamour for such change just don’t realize yet that it has disadvantaged buyers and sellers and gives mere posters two distinct advantages over full service brokerages. They’ll notice only if this seller’s market continues and mere postings grow.
Mere postings are of no comparative use to buyers and sellers when they are void of property descriptions of any sort. A proliferation would aggravate the ability to effectively determine market value defeating one of the very reasons the co-operative system is so successful.
Mere posting brokerages/REALTORS have the right it seems to redirect to their own web sites for such information yet, full service brokerages may not do so for their own listings.
Mere posting brokerages have the ability to store in their own databases not only their own property descriptions missing from realtor.ca but also the content of the full service listings while full service brokerages do not have the privilege of compiling the property descriptions of the mere listing brokerages.
How did CREA and the CB figure this was leveling the playing field and giving the public more information?
Heinz states "The trend now dictates that all Realtors sign Buyer Brokerage Contracts with potential buyers. I have been told that they usually include a clause that discloses that the buyers will only be shown of homes with commissions that meet the Buyer Brokerage Agreement’s commission rate"
So I guess that the buyers are then free to view the properties offering lower fees with the listing agent. Also I don't know how any one can make it mandatory for any buyer sign a buyer agency agreement. The buyer agency agreements are NOT for the benefit of the buyers but for the benefit of the agents. There are virtually no advantages for a buyer to sign a buyer agency agreement. The deck is stacked in the agents favour.
One word Dave,
"representation"-no contract no representation.
Real estate in 2012 is not 1970,80,90 or even Dec 31st 1994.
Heinz states “The trend now dictates that all Realtors sign Buyer Brokerage Contracts with potential buyers. I have been told that they usually include a clause that discloses that the buyers will only be shown of homes with commissions that meet the Buyer Brokerage Agreement’s commission rate”
A representation agreement containing this clause is voidable by law, as it would be wholly illegal to limit the properties an agent could show according to the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act – at least in Ontario.
Ross states – One word REPRESENTATION. I agree that is what agency is all about. So why doesn't the real estate industry practice what they preach and eliminate DUAL AGENCY as a service choice.
Rod,
Im curious how your company works? Let me know if this is wrong or not but when a seller comes to you and retains your services how does your seller price his property. Does he get any comps from you. If so, do you get it from the MLS.
If you do help with the pricing of his property and you do use data from the MLS to come to a conclusion on a listing price, dont you think you should be using data that should be more accurate. Shouldnt you be using data from FSBO's that have sold. This would reflect a more accurate price for your seller.
So what i see is a slap in the face when your company who does not co-operate with agents use these market values to sell their own home. You then brag and complain that listings agents are useless and charge way too much money. If it werent for listing agents who CO-OPERATE WITH buying agents….these record values would not be what they are…..We are the ones who create the market values that these cheap and inconsiderate sellers use.
If it all came to an end tomorrow for realtors who co-operate and the begining of sellerinvite companies like yours then i see your sellers suffering the most. Prices will average down because there is no middlemen pushing the action. So in a few years what will happen is you sellers will start to use home values that are lower and hence they will make less when they sells.
Take alook at pre-construction condos vs resale condos model. It is now more expensive to buy pre-construction condos then resale condos. Most of the developers co-operate handsomely (better then resale) with buying agents. When agents get paid good things happens. Projects are sold in record time and for record prices…we create the buzz. Developer's realize this. If they thought agents are useless as your company implies then they wouldnt be stupid enough to pay 4% to 5% in commission
Maybe you should also tackle the pre-construction condo market and let the developers know co-operation is not needed with buying agents….just SAVE SAVE SAVE. They will do better in the long run and still make the same money.
Let me know if my reply makes any sense to you. If its true maybe its time you shut your company down (save save save before you go bankrupt) and start thinking about driving a cab then to take advantage of the system and preaching SELLER INVITE B.S. Without data from MLS your sellers wont be able to achieve the record prices we have seen. Be honest to your sellers and start using FSBO sold data.
I think some of these sellers who choose not to use a listing agent who co-operate fully with buying agents are missing the BIG PICTURE. The record prices for homes are generated by listing agents who co-operate fully with buying agent. These record market values are the hard work of these types of listing agents. When you co-operate fully with the buying agent, you generate maximum exposure (majority of buyers work with a buying agent) . This exposure in a hot market generally translate to multiple offers. These multiple offers generate into a property selling at a record price .
So what i see is a slap in the face when the private sellers or listing agents who do not co-operate use these market values to sell their own home. They then brag and complain that listings agents are useless and charge way too much money. If it werent for listing agents who CO-OPERATE WITH buying agents….these record values would not be what they are…..We are the ones who create the market values that these cheap and inconsiderate sellers use.
HEINZ K….get a grip my friend.
I am a PILLAR of my community. I sponsor local sports teams, food drives, coloring contests and a school breakfast program at 2 local schools.
All of my listings sell because I price them accordingly. Even when others tell them they can get more (but its gonna cost them 5%-6%). My Sellers are well educated to understand the simple mathematical equation of 1 to 3% LESS in commissions out to a LISTING AGENT ADDS UP. Adds up to a whole lot of wasted equity. Asone of the other posters mentioned, 95% of all homes sell thru a co-operating Brokerage. Well thats what he said he tells FSBO Sellers.
List to bait and switch?????? No, but isn't that business. The opportunity is greater to pick up more Buyers when you have listings.
What would happen if there were no big FRANCHISES or BRANDING? You, as a Realtor had to hang your own shingle out there and your record would be based on your own performance? NOT THE BS of "we're above the clouds and our heads are in our as@@s". FACT, you probably couldn't function solo. Many couldn't. You need to hide behind those fantastic bar graphs that show YOUR company sells all the houses. Funny how EACH company tweaks the stats to favor their brand. Who's interests are being addresses here? THE BROKERAGE. They want….no, NEED you to go out there and push their name so they can squeeze lots of $$$ out of everyone of ya.
I could go on, but I'm not going to give you all the insight. Its going to happen and stumps like you will be exactly that. A stump. A remnant of what use to be. Responsible for your own demise because you weren't capable of understanding and embrassing change. Rotting, dead wood. Littering the highway of life. Carrying the bitter scent of failure and doom into eternity.
Cheers. Have a rainbow day.
Hi Rod Alberto:
Are you aware that the longest living trees on the planet have the ability to regenerate themselves, to continue on growing, even when cut down to a stump. They simply sprout new off-shoots from within that old stump, and keep on truckin', rising again to their former glory, overrshadowing all other lesser trees that try to take advantage of their brief exposure to the light. The latter sprout up quickly, as all softwoods do, then rot just as quickly, prior to being cut down, or collapsing of their own dead weight, and they thereafter serve to feed the quality aforementioned survivors with deep roots to boot (unlike the shallow-rooted, soft-wood ground surface feeders that lie dead), thus having their inferior pulp turned into fertilizer, which thereafter serves to nourish the stump-survivors, which continue to win the evolution sweepstakes.
The only "Rotting, dead wood. Littering the highway of life." are pieces of fallen/cut-down, rotted, stolen-from-private-property deadwood being bounced out of the back of a pick-up truck as it's driver rushes across said highway in order to get home with said bounty of quick-burn, incendiary booty, before it completely disintigrates into match-sticks (without the spark accelerator) within the said truck box.
Thus your "Littering the highway of life." comment holds water, enough, that is, to snuff out any misappropriated rotting, burning softwood embers.
Thanks for the opportunity to light’ n this discussion up!
Brian
Rod, I never directed any of my posts toward you. I am sure we are all “Pillars of our Community”. It is part of our image and our desire to give back to the community. Why does the fact that some of us choose to work together in large brokerages bother you? I pay the fees, not you. I do not pull out Graphs and Tables. I have no presentation folder. I could work for Bob’s Realty, but I choose not to. I also choose to put my money in larger banks rather than smaller ones. It is my choice, and I don’t criticize others for using smaller ones.
I retracted (with apologies) to any Brokerage that uses a “Flat Fee”. As long as that fee covers more than $.01 commission which obligates me to deal with the seller, I am happy. Working for the Buyer and Seller for one commission sucks. The paperwork and the liability increases. I prefer listings that have the commissions, albeit reduced, to those that don’t. If we ultimately end out “negotiating” the commission with “your” clients, then why not do it in the first place? The answer clear, is even from my stumpy perch. I am sure you provide great service to your clients and all of their homes sell. I bet they all sell for over list with multiple offers. Even if you say so yourself. Good for you!
“List to bait and switch?????? No, but isn’t that business. The opportunity is greater to pick up more Buyers when you have listings.”
Thanks for admitting that you list in hopes of supplementing your income from “stump” listings.
I am sure you will wake up in horror when you find that those clients who appreciated 3% less commission, might appreciate 6% less. What would happen if all the listings on the MLS offered just 1% total commission. Could you “stand above the stump” if your argument for being hired is based largely on offering a lower commission than the rest of the “dishonorable” Realtors? What if your dream came true and all of the “stumps” rotted away? Could you survive on $3500.00 a deal? Would you still afford to buy those jerseys for the local hockey team? Would you be able to advertise the listings in the local paper like the stumps? Rest assured, Com Free is knocking on your door. These well educated sellers may decide that they don’t need any of us. But it is not true. The desperate calls form the under-commissioned, self represented sellers always emboldens me and is mentioned in all my presentations – which never include Bar Graphs and Pie Charts. I sell myself, and my record of past success as Realtor. I also mention that my stump is a magic beanstalk which takes me (and them) above the clouds. I am as proud of my company and my services as you are about saving the overcharged citizens form the stumpy hordes.
Oh, and when I can no-longer make ends meet, I can always follow your secret insight – sell on price over service. Rest assured that if I was not able to convince a client of my worth, I would rather rot into dust and blow away. Of course selling out would be a last resort… There is no great mystery or mystique to your logic and approach. Give it away. Sounds a lot easier than what I am doing. Let’s just hope that the public does not find out about the fact that some Realtors may exclude your listings due to a disclosed policy of only showing listings with enough commission to cover their clients' Buyer Brokerage Agreement. Are your clients informed of this nugget? Highly unlikely.
The polarization will continue. Be careful of your wishes, they may come true. You may find that these stumps are the very roots that sustain your saplings. Once they are gone, and Com Free has taken over, you can wonder if perhaps you might have contributed to the rot.
Those against Realtors competing on Price should move to Russia where your communist beliefs come from. When you stop badmouthing discount commission Brokerages in your listing presentations and to others at that time you will become a Professional.
IF the CREA truly wanted competition in the industry they would permint incentives and inducements to be AGENT based. That would amazing for all sides.
I think Russia would approve of no or very low "State" commissions, the seeming penultimate goal of discount brokerages. What is next? Paying for listings solely to attract buyers? I bet the idea has crossed some Realtors' minds. I can see a future where discount brokerages all battle each other to the point of no commissions. The Lawyers will make more than we do… Better update that resume…
Do a sampling of 10 random listings. I bet over 80% offer at least 3% on the first $100,000 and 1.5% on the balance. Until that stat changes, the listings with less commission will be seen as second class by the buyer’s representative.
Ask me if I try harder to sell the one with less commission if my client likes two homes with different commissions. Would you blame me for embellishing the faults in the lower commissioned homes (staying within my fiduciary duties, of course), and pumping up the better commissioned one? Would I fight harder to get a better price if the lower commissioned listing owner is stubborn? Or would I just give it the same half assed effort that I might feel that the listing “Realtor” did when he/she neglected to obtain a reasonable commission for me. I bet even the deep discount brokers prefer to show the “rich” listings…. Saying otherwise is a lie, unless you are a philanthropist.
I don't get in Heinz, why don't you have your buyer pay the commission instead of relying on the seller to compensate you? That way you wouldn't be burdened with the ethical dilemma of having to, in your own words 'embellish the faults' of the home owner who elects, as is his right, to offer a lower commission. Or dare I say, offer any commission at all?
Right, I know why. Because most buyers would tell you to jump off a bridge if you handed them an invoice for what you feel you are 'entitled to'. But I'm sure your clients appreciate the 'embellishments'. The problem Heinz is that you are a dying breed in the business, a legacy to a bygone era, a dinosaur. How long have you been licensed – 25, 30 years? You've spent an awful long time debating in these threads, from discount brokerages to Comfree. Frankly, you come off as desperate, with a misguided sense of entitlement I simply don't understand. Maybe I've read you entirely wrong, but I doubt it.
This isn't a personal attack on you Heinz. It is an attack on your ridgid, uncompromising belief that the way business has been done 25 years ago is the way it ought to be continued. That service is somehow pinned to compensation, the sense of entitlement you carry with you, that anything outside of the status quo can f*** itself. Your attack on sellerinvite highlights this.
Heinz, I am sincere in wishing you the best. But I suspect that you will be amongst a large exodus from the business in the next 5 years. Because unless you are prepared to concede, adapt and embrace the changes coming to your industry, you are finished. And from what I've read, embracing change is the last thing on your mind. Change would have to beat you into submission.
In parting, the only advice I can give you is as follows:
http://www.workopolis.com
You may want to get a head start on your new career.
Heinz states
"Do a sampling of 10 random listings. I bet over 80% offer at least 3% on the first $100,000 and 1.5% on the balance. Until that stat changes, the listings with less commission will be seen as second class by the buyer’s representative."
Heinz It is called price fixing and because of the attitude of many agents we will be having the CB on our backs for many years. You also state "Would you blame me for embellishing the faults in the lower commissioned homes (staying within my fiduciary duties, of course), and pumping up the better commissioned one?" You seem to be one that places your interests above those of your clients. I must sadly say that you are not alone.
In this time of turmoil, frustration and finger pointing, I find myself stepping back and dealing with what and who I am – a Real Estate Professional, and proud of it. I will stand up for my rights, and the rights of others, and I know I am just one voice of many – and every voice counts. However, remember Karma? We have had injustices done, rights trampled on and more, but I try to hold my head high, and be the Realtor my clients expect me to be. So, when I find everything overwhelming with a "toss your hands in the air" type of feeling, I look over at my bullition board and read what it says:
" I am in business for myself.
I have a passion for what I do.
I believe the work I do is important and vital to the sale of the property.
I believe if I treat my clients with respect they will also value my work and pay me accordingly.
When there is no value, all you have left is price.
People who compete only on price generally have nothing to sell. "
Dale states "When there is no value, all you have left is price.
People who compete only on price generally have nothing to sell“
As REALTORS we seem to point the finger at those sellers that are looking for value at a lower cost. Isn't this exactly what REALTORS want. REALTORS are attracted by the thousand to brokers that charge lower desk fees. Are brokers that offer low desk fees the FSBO of the real estate business? Do low fees = limited service? Most real estate agents today want exactly what the most sellers want and that is service at a fair price. Why do some REALTORS pay $2500 per month as a desk fee while others pay $49 per month? It is simply a matter of choice. Sellers also have the right to choose the level of service they desire or need just like the REALTORS.
Interesting the comments on here. Seems everyone is complaining but no one is offering any possible solutions. Leave it to the existing leaders, organizations, powers to be and we will continue to see the same problems keep arising. This whole fiasco is just plain stupid and should never have come to light. Ok, what is my solution.
If your read recently that Tim Horton's successfully defended themselves from a class action suit from their franchisees over their practice to prepare more food before shipping, you will understand that a franchise can set the rules and the courts will uphold the right of the franchise. They are a Corporation, made for profit and can enforce their rights of their business model and product. The only problem is that someone owns the master franchise and then there is lower ones. What if everyone was an owner, who then could sue the Master??
So, think, could we create a master franchise for all realtors, maybe by province, or nationally, each owning a share(s). The master can subfranchise to the provincial level and/or to the individual broker level.
So what does this do. It allows us to set the rules of the Corporate Franchise and since it is a for profit operation, we share in profits and can then set the rules of which we play by. We become private enterprise simple as that. We could set our fees, we could set our Corporate rules, we would not need, CREA, OREA (other provincial organizations), TREB. We would only be accountable to the Provincial regulators, in my case RECO. All real estate agents under on large umbrella. Could it work?????
Forget the status quo of protecting non profit status, protecting the name Realtor (most in the public don't understand it anyway). protecting MLS boards etc.
One Listing sharing site per province/nationally, one master franchise. in other words, become good corportate citizens, all joined together for profit.
Your comments are certainly welcome on this idea of restructuring the whole system. You may have more good ideas, maybe better than this one so lets hear them. This is what will give our leaders (if we want to call them that) something to work on. Stop bitching, the problem is already here, let's hear some valid solution from the Realtors across the country.
This is my suggestion, pick it appart, support it – by my guest but stop bitching and start offering constructive solutions – NOW.
Dennis I thought you swore an oath of secrecy until March 25th.
Two updates:
1) If you think your association is not a NPO please call rev can and request verification. Then contact your NPO and ask them if they can earn income on your behalf and pass it back on to you. Finally ask them if they can take any action that benefits 99.9% of their members yet may not be beneficial to the remaining .1%.
2) ProtectYourPrivacy.ca has been launched by TREB. An Angus Reid survey is included. You can be sure version 2 of this site will illicit great attention from national media and privacy commissioners both.
Remain positive and be proud of that professional you see in the mirror!!
So many want something for nothing… easier to take from others rather than earn it yourself… Those who work hard know they earn every dime of their commission and need not appologize for it. One person who continually wanted me to work for free told me he thought I was different but could now see I was really only in it for the money… Hmmmmm that was interesting to me as I had already spent hours of my time giving him advice and told him if he wanted more information he would have to hire me.. He didn't like that. With his comment I simply said… wow you are an amazing individual.. I have never met someone who would tell his boss he would be happy to pay for all his schooling, pay monthly for the privilege of working at his job, put himself in a position of legal liability every day and then do it for free… I appologized that my family was not wealthy so I was not a non profit worker… But good for him.. He then appologized and said he understood but interestingly enough still didn't hire me.. He did however buy the FSBO I told him was overpriced and years later he is stuck with it, unable to sell as the value is not there.
Education is key for the public to understand what we do.. We need an organization that can educate, and fight for our rights. (not wishy washy, don't stand for anything type fighting, but one that passionatly believes in what we do) Our freedom of speach should not end because we disagree with someones business model.. We should have the right to speak as long as it is honest and not misleading.
There has to be a way to keep our industry strong.. I see the new rules put in place by the competition bureau hurting the public more than helping.. Leaving more room for wrong information, and no real representation… those are just my thoughts..
I love what I do and find it a privilege to serve the public with honesty and integrity but not for free. My family deserves me to stand up and make a difference and earn a decent paycheck…Just sayin :)
I am impressed with your comment; I have nothing else to add:
*** I love what I do and find it a privilege to serve the public with honesty and integrity but not for free. My family deserves me to stand up and make a difference and earn a decent paycheck…***
Good luck n take care.
Isi
First off guys REALTORS are members of a professional organization and not a not for profit organization in the sense you're trying to pass it off. Like the professional organizations representing doctors, lawyers, accountants and engineers, it's design is to represent the interests of our industry members, and as members we are required to represent the industry and the consumers we serve with the highest degree of professionalism. So those who say we are not professionals you are simply wrong.
What CREA and all subsequent boards do not do or have any say in, is how we charge for our services. In fact, no board does!
That being said, Lawrence Dale was correct in that the TREB was implementing policy in order to limit his ability to operate his business model and that, whether you like it or not, is both wrong and illegal. And based on this article they continued to do so even after the first law suit, now they've displayed a pattern of prejudice and that doesn't look good to a judge who cares only that we follow the rules of the law.
So the moment we carry ourselves as a collective or put ourselves out there as professionals we have to follow curtain rules and standards and if we were to form a new board, or collective, with some contributors here then you can expect pretty much the same results. So the idea of shutting down the MLS is silly, the big companies would love that and you'd be left even lower on the extinction calender.
And this blame it on the Board game is childish, our whole industry is to blame because we failed to listen to the needs and wants of consumers and we continue to do so today, so start arguing from a position of reality and not a position of anger. Quit telling everyone your service is better than others simply because you charge more because it's not true and consumers are not buying it. Want to charge more then offer more…thats called competition and it's arrived.
What CREA has failed to do is inform the public about what a mere posting is and they've allowed by owner companies to imply they're offering something they are not. They've failed to anticipate the changes and have failed to put into place measures to ensure the integrity of our system and our profession is not compromised-for that we can legitimately raise a stink.
Rod Thompson, Founder
SellerInvite.com
So does this meen you are the next realitysellers? How much do you intend to sue the organised realtor sector for due to discrimenation?
You are right about one thing – it is not the "Boards" fault. What do you think the public thinks of Realtors charging a fee before doing anything? Do you think that those who are unable to sell their homes because they do not offer commission are happy after your "listing" expires? Do you sign them up for another term$$. I would feel shady doing this to the public. What standards are these?
The public now sees us as no better than Doctors. Fees, fees, fees. I believe that we are now less respected than before because of this supposed "reaction to what the public wanted". What was wrong with Com Free? Now they list on the MLS and get the benefit of our industry created website. They still can’t sell their home unless it is immaculate or underpriced…
Realtors with years of experience are struggling to sell homes in a buyer's market even with plenty of commission. What chance do you think a regular Joe has with none? Are you being honest with them, or have you found a niche between Com Free and being a Realtor. I bet you are pissed at the fact that Com Free is listing on the MLS. Kinda makes you obsolete. Do you feel responsible for this in some way?? Are you well received a Realtor functions???
And why do I get the impression that your company just lists for pennies to be able to advertise the properties on your website? Then you can convert the buyers over to better paying commissioned homes that your colleagues supply? Am I right or are you able to hire a team based on the paltry listing fees?
How do you look other Realtors in the eye? Asking us to quit telling our customers that our services are better than yours is rich. I bet you use the fact that we charge too much in every presentation. If you are such a good salesperson and can convince people to pay you BEFORE you do anything, why can't you convince them to pay more commission? Your whole business model is based on criticizing what we have all done for years. Hypocrite much? If you were a real honest and caring businessperson, you would return all the commissions that you earned sell other Realtors’ listings. Then I could take you seriously. Until then, you and your ilk will be seen as the most shameful of opportunists, …and liars.
Actually do not think this is really SellerInvite because I do not think they would want to draw any attention to their website, especially from the Alberta RE association.
That site has: We've Saved Sellers Over $3 Million in Commissions Since 2008! , on that site and I do not think that statement aligns with the advertising standards we all must follow.
Actually reviewing that site there are several CREA Code breaches posted on it. Any Alberta REALTOR should be aware that they are legally obligated to contact their association and CREA when they see these breaches. If they do not then they themselves are in breach of the Code.
hey, you Alberta guys better send those Code violations in asap.
Speaking of representing our industry with professionalism – one chock full of codes of ethics, I just don't understand why some brokerages and REALTORS profess to being professional, lecture the rest on same yet overtly break those same codes.
"ABOUT" is clearly misleading and inaccurate as well considering that there are a number of X's under the Traditional Agent heading which can only suggest those services are not offered by the traditional agents – this is clearly incorrect. But this is not the only brokerage or REALTOR leaving the public with false impressions.
There are brokerages and REALTORS who do abide by the rules and won't do the same, nor counter nor act to have the misconceptions corrected and even if they do they may be breaking the codes. This post may even be in violation although it states the truth should anyone else care to read the "ABOUT."
Self-regulating my eye! No wonder the industry is fighting for its reputation – there isn't a clear reputation and it's heart breaking.
Competition has always been here and its always had two elements that are inseverable: price plus quality equals value. So with all Rod Thompsons posts that claim to offer comparable quality I've never read anything of substance in the way of a statistic that would relate to performance.
So tell us Rod, what percentage of original list price that your listings sell for as compared to your competitors who may charge more. You pick the MLS area, of your choice, and give us the particulars for all of 2011. Should be easy enough and we'll assume your listings are never under priced.
Please let all canadians see the solds and days on the market being a realtor does not mean to be unethicalif mlx is open to public realtors will be more needed. Real estate is made illiquid due to these stumbling blocks. When mlx is open to public crea and councils will be irrelevant and public will save millions of dollars. Commercial real estate does not use mls system but they still make money through real estate.
This has nothing to do with CREA, it is a privacy issue so take it up with the privacy comissioner. I would love to post sold info but I understand that many clients would consider it intrusive.
They can't, under the guise of privacy issues, which is BS. Home sales in Ontario form part of the public record, and you can find out what any home has sold for in Ontario with a credit card.
http://www.propertyline.ca/pages_english/products…
Well Adam based on that eloquent response then there is no need to post the sales since if you want to know, then go find out. Oh but wait, most of that info is several months old since only closed sales are registered and usually weeks after closing and a typical closing is 60-90 days from a binding agreement. Therefore registry data is not much use for determining current value which of course is why appraiser's use MLS sales data not public records for the most part. It is NOT THEY but the privacy act itself. I would benifit if I could post sales info but it is against the law period. Take issue with the act and your federal government not CREA. The fine is a hefty one for any agent that goes against the act, period. Its a legislative issue.
Well Adam, people that want things for free don't want to pay for them if that wasn't the case the freebie crowd wouldn't be clamouring for fee sales info, they'd be willingly shelling out whatever amount it costs to use that portal or be using it very very sparingly, not drooling over the fact they can now expect to know every single property's sold price.
Yes or no?
Chad,
The seller asked about sales information. My answer not only answers the question, but is accurate. And frankly, a sale has to close before the sale price is of any value.
MLS data doesn't show private sales, but the land registry system does. And agents give away the info all the time. Don't kid yourself.
MLS sales info is not the only way a seller can ascertain home values, nor is it relied entirely by appraisers.
Hopefully my answer is eloquent enough for you.
Ped,
I have no idea what you are saying. Seriously.
http://tosolds.ca/
Enough said.
Adam, by the time the sale closes the price is of no value in most cases as market pricing is fluid, which again is why appraisels are based on MLS data whenever possible intstead of public records. By the way thanks for the link, I signed up and if it is the full information I will for sure report them to the privacy commissioner so that we can all be on a level playingfield. If nothing is done then I will have a leg to stand on for offering similar services in my area :)
Could we not have our own type of Realtor.ca , with our own rules, and paid by all of us? Would this not eliminate what is going on now?
Does anyone know who owns Realtor.ca, how it is paid for etc? I think most of the us do not know these answers and if we did , we could make better decisions..
Perhaps I am the only ignorant one out there..
IF any Joe blow can start up a web-site and have their own rules on it, why cant we start all over and do the same….
Each agent would know the exact cost of the site and could then decide whether they want to belong to it or not….BUT with rules that agents would like to see….
All agents pay monthly dues, all of that goes to boards and part of it pays for Realtor.ca. You have plenty of websites for public use, such as grapevine and dozens more, but that's the problem. Every one of those wants to make a buck, so they keep on creating new websites and who would want to pay for listings on 10 different websites? MLS unites all Realtors, that's why it's the largest database around.
Having flat fee and Com Free (false advertising – not free even if you pay as little as $.01) operate using our MLS systems is a joke. I have shown many homes that are "listed" by these means. Most of them are improperly priced and my clients are not protected by the disclosure policies offered by the modern listing contracts. What's worse is the lame sellers trying to poach my clients, or refusing to allow me to show the home. Why two sets of rules? If they are using a system designed by professionals, than they should at least be held to the same standards.
The reason every Realtor is silent is because CREA has brainwashed them into this ludicrous belief that they are not allowed to speak out. The culture of silence has turned us all into polite sheep, which are now helping the wolves to butcher us. We all hate when our client phones and asks to see the com free with the other showings. The awkward phone call to the seller asking to show a home which offers no commission is every Realtor’s nightmare. We now have to try to co-ordinate our showings to meet the seller, who makes selling the home impossible.
My clients complain that they can’t see the home because of the “salesman/woman/owner” breathing down their neck. I hate it. Then if my clients like the home, I have to negotiate a commission or explain to my client that they will have to pay me a commission. It ultimately comes off of the price of the home. Who are the sellers trying to fool? In recent months, I have noticed the desperation in sellers trying to sell a home with a decent commission (using regular Realtors). If homes with good commissions do not sell what hope do ones that have no commissions have? Where are their multiple offers?
I know that other members do NOT show these homes. They pretend that the seller did not answer, or that the home is pending. Yes, Realtors now lie to their clients to survive. But the culture of silence pervades and we all bend over for the new flat fee and commission free services. Fee or Commission – they are still paying. Why should I as a Realtor respect any of the Sellers rights when they refuse to compensate me. They want to have a level playing field, but still want to be protected. Either you know enough to do it yourself, or you don't. The recent bending over backwards with Fiduciary duties and silly disclosures has made us all into nannies. Now they want our services for free. We should all be appalled that a Com Free listing is able to list on the MLS. The Competition Bureau has killed the industry under the guise of protecting the poor unwashed masses. Absolute bullshit! We are all caught up in ethics and Fiduciary Duties, while respect for our services has diminished and the Industry as a whole suffers a bad reputation because more games are played. Why should I bother paying expensive CREA and AREA fees when every citizen can do what I do today without rules and fees? I know I am not "allowed" to say thiis, but shame on all those who let this happen. Shame on all those who could not make their value known, and had to give away their services.
Here is the bad news. Realtors are now breaking into two groups. Those that pay commission, and those who don’t pay commission. The Com Free listers are the most reviled. They make the 2%commission guys look like heroes. Realtors are now forced to break the rules in order to stay in the business. Then CREA insists that we report the offenders??? What a joke. The worst part is that we are all supposed to "pretend" that everything is OK. Really? What have you done for me lately? If this erosion continues, Realtors will be a forgotten trade, like the Travel Agents. CREA and AREA will have no one to collect fees from.
The MLS services should up the cost of listing to $500.00 per deal. Com Free that!! Then we can pay out all the leeches and whiners, while still being able to keep the tire kickers at the curb.
Why should I support the Realtors who are eroding my ability to make a living? I have heard “rumors” about listing agents who give preference to offers from Realtors that provide full commission on their listing in the event of a multiple offer. There exists a groundswell of hatred for the flat fee brokerages. To deny this is foolhardy and shortsighted. This rift will continue to deepen over time. Ethics and Fiduciary Duties are hollow terms for those whose income has dropped. At some point, the rubber has to hit the road. I am tired of hearing how Realtors got into the business because they are just trying to help others. Puuhleeese! We are in it for the cash, and yes we can we can be decent and respectful to the rights of the client. Working for free is charity. Save the sanctimony for church. I can’t get my doctor to operate for free…Why do Unions not have this problem?
What needs to happen in that ALL Realtors refuse to show homes that are not offering commissions. Like a Tory backbencher, we are not allowed to say a thing. I am tired of this non-sense. RECA does not allow us to complain about the Discount brokerages. Why not??? Unless you work for one, make no mistake, you are hated. Nobody wants to stand up and mention the elephant that is taking up the room. I do not mind lower commissions, but $.01???? What an insult!!! Shame on Com Free!
Could you imagine if no Realtors showed the homes without commissions for a whole six months? Silent collusion like this already exists. It is very illegal, but it could happen. I know of Realtors “rumored” to refuse to show these listings. I do not blame them. Yet these “Discount” Brokers count on the rest of us who are able to “sell” the value of our services to establish an inventory of decently commissioned homes that will allow them to make a decent living. I wonder if the flat rate consumers are aware that their Realtors are encouraging (switching) potential buyers to purchase other homes (which provide a greater commission), rather than selling their OWN listing? How does that serve the interests of the seller? The worst part is that the Com Free brokerage gets credit for the sale, when the actual sale comes about because of Realtors. It skews the stats. The Realtor websites lose their integrity. If I did not know better, I would say that the local MLS boards are pleased with the new rules. I bet their income goes up. They are finally getting some of the Com Free money. Shame!!!
I have an excellent example: I was in the process of writing up an Offer with my Buyer client on House #1 listed at $250,000 @ 900 Sq. Ft., when low and behold a ComFree listing all of a sudden pops up on my radar just reduced to $240,000 @1250 Sq. Ft. The ComFree house was far superior and looked 'too good to be true' for the area and square footage. Since I consider myself an ethical Agent, I decided to take the chance on it. Imagine my surprise when Mr. Comfree Seller states that he is paying 3.5% & 1.5% to the Buyer's Agent! So my Buyer and I head over to take a look and since the home has been listed for over 6 months with only 4 business cards on the counter (yes, only 4)…. I make my own conclusions as to why it is not sold. My client wrote right there and then and STOLE that house at $70,000-80,000 UNDER MARKET VALUE!! After the deal closed and I got paid ~ I made it a special priority to send a letter with a market evaluation to Mr. ComFree Seller to show him how he definitely saved $7,000 on the Listing Portion of the Sale, BUT LOST $80,000 on the value !!! ….. and me and my Buyers laughed all the way to the bank.
Shame on you for admittedly lying to your clients and shame on you for suggesting a competitive service or reduced fee is " giving away their value or services"!
Seriously, did you really say that?
Heinz and others seem to infer that not charging a fixed 5% (or more) somehow gives disservice to the seller. Nonsense. It's called being efficient. I have been in this industry for over 12 years and have done well at less than 5% and always insisted on 2.5% to the co-operating realtor who, as we know, brings in 95% of the buyers. That's what the MLS is for. One problem is that companies like Realt**** (and similar companies, I am not singling these people out so put away your litigation daggers) know enough to be able to milk the stupid heads at the Competition board.
Who owns the MLS information? Realtors do. Companies offering FSBO sites whine about "giving choices to sellers". Bullshit. It's about making money and the first one in usually gets the biggest share. Are FSBO sites doing charity work that they are so concerned about giving sellers "choices"?
They are also smart enough to play Realtors against the other, essentially guiding "full" commission Realtors and "discount" Realtors (both imagined classifications as there are NO standard commissions, how can a discount of a non-standard something exist?) into a fight…while they say "see competition board, even Realtors can't agree".
Perhaps CREA should just state the obvious.
Realtors own the info and will not give it for free, nor would any organization or industry.
Realty****Ipseudonym) can claim that as they are also Realtors, they also collectively own the info and can give it out as they please, and that would be hard to argue with the current structure.
It can be said by any reasonable adult that $.01 is not a Co-operating commission and no smart adult (or kid) would consider working for $01 per hour.
So, is it reasonable or lawfull for CREA to mandate a minimum co-operating commission and then restructure the MLS so that those offering less than the minimum be classified as a pseudo-exclusive listing (new cattagory, new documentation)?
In a search, the Realtor can search for listings and the semi-exclusive listings and have a corresponding Buyer Rep Agreement in place.
Realty****(pseudonym) can then have its MLS listings and Realtors that do not want to work for a can of tuna can avoid begging for commission.
The other choice is for Realtors to become enployees of the Brokerages and then the Brokerages can set a minimum listing and selling fee and set a level od compensation for their employees. This would be fair and lawfull as any industry or company can set a reasonable fee (market driven) for its product or service.
Would your auto garage fix your car with the expectation of being paid by the company that supplies the parts? Oh shit, can you imagine that? This is what the Realty industry is being forced into by firms like Rea*****s and others that use the ambiguous rules to get their share of the listings and leave Co-operarting Realtors in a state where they have to beg to be paid.
Perhaps the 'fiduciary" rules and "representation" rules should be ammended to reflect that the "Realtor must be able to ensure an adequate level of compensation for their services" clause that gives Realtors a way out of having to call Sellers directly for their pennies. I have contacted a number of Sellers marketing their homes under Realt***** type of services over the last 2 months and am constatntly amazed at the ambiguous answers I receive. "Sure, bring them in and we will see". Really? You want me to bring my Buyer to your home, even though you can legally ask me to stay on the porch while you show the buyer (and throw out hints like…the price can be lower if we don't have to pay your Realtor) and as many Buyers don't want Buyer Agreements (and cannot be forced into signing one), we would have NO grounds to claim any compensation.
No other industry works this way.
Ask your Dentist to clean your teeth and cut his fees (about $180 per hour, based on 15 minute units….where is the competition board on those fees?). Better yet, get out of the chair 10 minutes before he/she competes the cleaning and claim you don't have to pay as you did not sign an agreement.
Hang tough. Hopefully, those ***** guys will starve themselves out of the business before we are starved out.
P.S. Heinz, a common reference to 'flat fee" type services is inaccurate. I am with FlatFEE. I don't charge 5% but then again, my monthly fees don't have to cover bullshit TV commercials costs or other costs that do nothing for the Sellers. Could be you are being milked by your Brokerages so start saying NO to some of your monthly "marketing fees" and perhaps then you will be in a better position to offer more competetive fees and compete against the Realt**** and Com*** (pseudonyms) type of business models.
Peter B.
Forgive the spelling errors.
I simply tell my clients that I dont show Com Free and FSBO s. I dont care what the rules are. If you dont play by my rules and offer a decent comission without me having to call up and negotiate while my client sits in another office in my building or in my car then you are not going to receive my services.
Wendy your actions / comments are so unprofessional. You state -"I made it a special priority to send a letter with a market evaluation to Mr. ComFree Seller to show him how he definitely saved $7,000 on the Listing Portion of the Sale, BUT LOST $80,000 on the value !!! ….. and me and my Buyers laughed all the way to the bank."
Mr Comfree allowed you to show his property and paid you a fee. If your buyer got a good deal so be it, but show some respect to the consumers. The letter was so unprofessional.
More thoughts on Wendy's comments above. By sending a letter with an evaluation to Mr Comfree you may have crossed the line and acted as an undisclosed dual agent. When Mr Comfree received your letter perhaps he could have refused to pay your commission and also take you to court to make up the difference for what you claim he lost. When showing a private sale you should only be representing your buyer, but giving Mr Comfree advice puts you into that grey area which many REALTORS find themselves. Best not to make comments to the buyers or sellers if not representing their interests.
My apologies Peter. I did not mean to slag Flat Fee Brokerages. I have no problem with them, as long as they offer me a commission greater than $.01. I have listings that offer less than full commission, and I understand the need for negotiable fees.
My argument is with those that make me negotiate with the seller. Allowing the non-commission offering brokerages? (Com Free) to use our site is misleading. The buyer assumes that they are getting the same goods from the Com Free as they are from a Realtor. I take exception to the fact that they are "posing" as Realtors. The public may assume that they are Realtors because their listings are on the Realtor Website. When we hold Com Free to the same accountability – insurance etc, and the accuracy of their listings (disclosure of defects etc. – I assume the boards are doing that) then we can be more sure of their properties.
Why is the Com Free network not obligated to publish the listings of those Realtors who charge no commission? Double standard? They may as well if they are not offering a commission…
Here is another thought…
Why don’t the local boards publish the sales to listing ratios and the days on the market for the new “mere postings”. I bet the data may prove that the public is not benefitting from the new deregulation. Look how well that worked out for the public when Financial Institutions were deregulated…
Yeah right, all you said was false. It's called competition and if you can't handle it, quit. Long live comfree.
After a number of years in various business arenas, I became a REALTOR® just two years ago, and I am constantly surprised that CREA has obviously never given any consideration to the fact that the real estate industry was and is not immune to ‘de-regulation’. Just as governments everywhere have stepped in to deregulate various industries — the telephone industry [first land lines and then mobile phones] – and cable TV to name just two, it was inevitable that it would happen to real estate as well. If so, the very people that are supposed to protect the interests of the industry are wearing blinders … which doesn’t allow for very much forward vision. Did we, both CREA and the industry as a whole, really believe that we would escape what happened in the States? As for killing off MLS or realtor.ca, that would be an unwise move. We do have an aging population that may or may not fully understand the use of the internet, but the same thing cannot be said of the upcoming generation. Besides, everything today can be searched for and found online — I dare say we wouldn’t really want to absent ourselves from that exposure. BUT, there is no reason why we shouldn’t put our thinking caps on to organize realtor.ca in a more realistic fashion and that is to divide it into categories, i.e. New Construction, Resale Homes and, finally, Mere Postings. I would appreciate comments. Sharon A.
It might just be a good time for Realtors to start giving some thought to getting back to basics. I was the founding President of our local board back in the mid 70's and things sure have changed. Back then MLS was considered to be a way of sharing listing information with other brokerages and to invite their co-operation. We had a part time secretary , who cranked out listings in her "office" a small bedroom in her home and the system seemed to work very well (we were a very small board!). Fast forward to the present and most realtors would or should agree that the widest possible exposure of available properties is a very good thing for both sellers and buyers and mls.ca seems to do this very well. The old way of hand cranking a gestener has now given way to entering listing data and then simply pressing the send key and by some mysterious way the data and photos wind up on mls.ca. As an industry we have been targeted by others and have allowed hudge levels of burocracy to be created
Everyone; CREA's hands are tied just like every board in Canada because they are NPOs with only one requirement of membership, that being a licensed REALTOR. CREA legally cannot flinch without the CB coming down on them. That does not mean you as an independent business person has their hands tied.
To protect your own business (like with the DDF headed your way) you MUST seek out unbiased education on these issues.
Brian; I think having 49 check marks may be a REM record. As a former REALTOR your freedom to communicate outside the requirements of the Code of Ethics is empowering.
Adam Morse; $50/member/month (average) for just mls infrastructure just to create the database that populates realtor.ca equals 60 million per year. CREA tech fees for realtor.ca are another 10 million (one way or another).
So to start we are at $70 million per year but ….there is more.
The business cost to accumulate that data is estimated to be 3 hours on the list price and 4.5 hours on the sale price. This means 500,000 property listings data accumulated in one year totals 3.75 million billable hours. At only $100/ hour this equals a staggering $375 million dollars in mls data collection billable hours.
This is not debatable it is a fact. Each year REALTORS contribute over $450 Million Dollars a year to support the mls infrastructure in Canada. In my 25 year real estate career, CREA members (and only CREA members) have spent over 40 Billion Dollars creating the mls databases across Canada.
For those of us who understand the back ground of the mls this is why to see a 40 Billion Dollar investment ( I have contributed to since 1987) being
suggested to be handed over FREE of Charge to web entreprenuer that got his license only to take that data for 600 Bucks a year is simply ridiculous.
We also need to remember this fact:
The data supplied to that database is the most accurate and scrutinized data in the Canadian business world with an estimation of error correction of under 1%, something no other database can claim. The accuracy is so correct (and tested in court over and over again) that every property tax payer in Canada relies on it's accuracy for every month's property tax they pay. Canada's biggest city, Toronto, funds it's entire operations based on the information verified and collected by REALTORS.
I personally am tired of not seeing a truthful and accurate interpretation of the cost to create the national mls databases not being conferred to Canadians.
This is like the buyer last night that asked me why I would not do an offer for him that was 8% below a valid list price, by stating "but my friends all said go ahead and try it costs you nothing". It may have cost him nothing but it would have cost me over $1000 to research, draw, explain, present and follow up that offer.
Adam again; I "serve" the kids in my community by coaching sports , I don't "serve" my clients. I professionally represent them under a contractual relationship that provides and agreed upon benefit to them and the business I own that feeds my family.
"Putting Clients First" means putting my business first. My business cannot survive if it is unethical, overcharges, unprofessional or spews false and misleading comments to the public. Without my business the charity work I "serve" to my community could never happen.
You wrote:
"Adam Morse; $50/member/month (average) for just mls infrastructure just to create the database that populates realtor.ca equals 60 million per year. CREA tech fees for realtor.ca are another 10 million (one way or another).
So to start we are at $70 million per year but ….there is more.
The business cost to accumulate that data is estimated to be 3 hours on the list price and 4.5 hours on the sale price. This means 500,000 property listings data accumulated in one year totals 3.75 million billable hours. At only $100/ hour this equals a staggering $375 million dollars in mls data collection billable hours.
This is not debatable it is a fact. Each year REALTORS contribute over $450 Million Dollars a year to support the mls infrastructure in Canada. In my 25 year real estate career, CREA members (and only CREA members) have spent over 40 Billion Dollars creating the mls databases across Canada."
I replied:
The fees acquired by CREA to operate the technology infrastructure doesn't equate to the true cost of maintaining/updating the DBs of all MLS systems combined. As an engineer that works in the development of these types of large scale systems, operational costs don't come anywhere near that. Even if you factor in licensing (as I imagine so services are licensed to real estate boards), you are no where near $60,000,000. If they are, then someone ought to investigate as it would appear 100,000 REALTORS committing $50/month are getting fleeced. Seriously, REALTOR.ca has to be one of the least updated sites in Canada, and updates to local MLS systems include adding a few fields on occasion. I'm sure some systems/DBs are revamped, but as I understand it TREB has their own team of developers that work on the TREB MLS. $750K – $1,000K /year in salaries to work on the largest DB in Canada, tops.
Seriously, $60,000,000 to operate the sum of all Canadian MLS systems on a yearly basis is outrageous if true.
Hi Ross:
It seems that we have hit a very sensitive nerve…finally.
As a former Realtor (only since December 31, 2011) I 'might' be voicing my opinions from without the Code of Ethics (which are simply top-down CREAted rules/reg's. foisted upon you all from on-high), but I certainly am voicing my opinions from a very solid moral foundation, not to mention as well from a solid legal perspective, in my opinion.
Newly minted governments overturn previous governments' legislative agendas/laws whenever it becomes politically expedient to do so, especially if elected to do so. The same can happen within the Canadian real estate industry. All that it takes is a groundswell of organized gumption on the part of the affected masses, so-governed, to take back the control of the formerly so-called self-governance machinery.
I'm always at-the-ready to help out if a need arises.
You are heading for a Thumbs Up bashing of the old record as well…kudos!
What part of the country are you located in?
You may email me at bowmart@sympatico.ca
Best Regards,
Brian
Hi Ross:
When I stated within my last post (Thursday March 14th, 2:35 P.M.) that "All that it takes is a groundswell of organized gumption on the part of the affected masses, so governed, to take back control of the formerly, so-called, self-governance machinery.", I was refering to the tens of thousands of licensed real estate sales representatives across Canada.
Upon a re read I realized that my "affected masses" comment could be misconstrued to mean the general public at large.
However, the 'general public at large' stands to benefit, first and foremost, as well as industry insiders, from a volcanic upheaval from within the organized real estate industry via its grass roots practitioners.
New organization, new, front-line people positioned therein, new ways and means of keeping a tether on these folks in 'high places', and a new, seriously designed Code of Ethics reflecting the consumer's concerns…only…would heal many wounds.
A secondary, subserviant Code of Ethics (subserviant to the Consumer Code) would be established for the benefit/ guidance of the licensed folks.
The primary code would override the secondary where consumer issues comingled with internal issues.
Wacky?… some might say?
I don't think so.
Creative?…Outside-The-box-Thinking? Possibly effective?
Likely?
Absolutely.
As of now "Time wounds All Heals" is the experiential by-line of many…on both sides of the great Realtor–Consumer divide.
Brian
750 million dollars. Realty sellers believe they are worth this much. Have you all seen the size of their brokerage. What a joke. They will ultimatly lose. Let's face it if Realty sellers had their way imagine all the law suits that would result due to private sales and individuals with no representation making errors. The lawyers are loving this and loving their bank accounts even more once the small claims courts filings start lining up due to this lack of realtor representation. Do people so see how this would hurt the economy more rather then protecting it!?
I just got this from the realty sellers website
"Every client we represent as a purchaser gets a rebate cheque for 25% of the commission we receive. Maybe you want to add a hot tub to your new home, or celebrate with a vacation? You spend it as you wish. No hidden fees or costs."
After reading this….whats 25% of $1……This is the only time im cheering for a brokerage to DOUBLE END on their own listings.
John thanks for this. It flies in the face of those who scream that competition will lower fees or cheerlead for the zero to low fees services.
Every single one of the brokerages modelling their services as fsbo providers, flat fee listings and rebate brokerages make their entrance with next to nothing fees only to change them shortly thereafter in their own favour.
It was only last year wasn't it that Realtysellers was rebating up to 75%? In a complete rerversal, they now retain 75% and rebate 25%. Dale made sure he was given big headlines for the former, I don't recall seeing similar headlines when RS decided to claw back on the rebate.
Since this is fact, REALTORS are within their rights to state these types of changes when advertising their own services. Perhaps we should start doing so and turn the tables on those who make unsubstantiated satements about savings.
The initial rebate scenario appeared in REM's article here: http://www.remonline.com/home/?p=7049
Excerpt:
"Realtysellers has what it calls a “buyer bonus” equal to 50 per cent of the first $25,000 in fees and a 100-per-cent rebate on the remainder, up to 75 per cent of Realtysellers’ fees."
Maybe $50K per month = $600,000K per year.
It's just a web site…
Probably way more than you make.
Re-think the math too and take into consideration they are affiliated withnthe largest private sale network….NATIONWIDE.
$50,000 a month represents just 250 listings a month….NATIONWIDE.
What if they did 1000 a month per Province. Ha! Now your heads spinning.
All TREB members should sign an agreement that they will abide by TREB rules and waive the right to sue. With amount of time and money that has been waisted on this, we could have had a whole new system and actually taken care of the problem instead of defending the current one.
Spoken like a true Director!
"abide by all TREB rules and waive the right to sue". That's a brilliant idea Ron C. Now that's democracy at its finest. It's that type of mentallity that has placed TREB in the legal mess that it's in today.
There is only one solution!!!!! Remove http://www.Realtor.ca and MLS.ca…WE DONT NEED IT PEOPLE!!!!!!!! WAKE UP!!!!!!
We only need OUR TREB BACK END!!!!! This will solve everything!!!!!
There wont be a FSBO In sight at all!!! no where for them to post anything!!!and No Agent is going to show a FSBO for $1,00…
Easy Solution!!..Let these idiots construct there own sites….they will all fail like the rest of the FSBO sites have….
Hasnt anyone else noticed these FSBO siting on market for months and months while other homes 2 doors down sell in days! Hahahaha!!!
REMOVE REALTOR.CA AND MLS.CA!!!!!!!!NOWWWWWWW!!!!!
the lack of professionalism and protection for the clients only increases, because of the lack of realtor involvement. Would you let a car mechanic operate on you heart?
Yes remove realtor .ca & mls.ca problem solved
Smart Agent,
We need realtor.ca as a cornerstone of any REALTORS lead generation platform. The tools are already built into the system that would allow that to happen, if members knew and were universally empowered to capitalize on them.
We all must remember that individually each of us can act in the best interest of our businesses, that is not anti-competitive. Each of us must make the best decision on how to use realtor.ca for our own business.
Now you may need to be educated in what can be done with realtor.ca to benefit your business but you can do it right now.
I fully agree with Ron to take off Realtor.ca & MLS.ca. Which is highly effecting our business. There should be other procedures need to bring in so that all Reators also follow good business ethics & professionalism.
Many private sellers make the mistake of bringing emotion into the sale, asking to much for their property etc… In these scenarios a Realtor is a great option as they can provide sound advice and guidance. With that said, selling a home is not rocket science. If you take your time to understand the process you can be very successful at it. My wife and I just sold our house privately in one day for asking price. We have the smallest house on the street yet we attained the second highest selling price on the street. There is room for both realtors and private sellers. Stop spending your time bashing FSBOs and focus on customers who do want your services.
Ross K…Incorrect! if Realtor.ca brings you more than a deal a year congrats!!! get on top of technology! start generating 50 leads a day from google like all the other smart realtors! The days of door knocking and flyers are Done!
Maybe you need to look again. The FSBO sites sell thousands of homes a year.
All a Buyer really wants to do is see inside of the home. Their sites allow this. Most Buyes are smart enough to search the local area they prefer to live in. These site allow properties to be sited using the neat tool called GOOGLE MAPS. You plan to dismantle that too?
I'm clearly seeing Buyers Agents selling these home listed for lower fees once a property is reported sold. It doesn't disclose the amount paid out to a co-op Broker, but lets assume they are getting paid a fee greater than $1.00. If not, maybe you could start shaming your fellow Agents for taking a 2% commission or LESS. Imagine that, LESS. LESS because your BUYER……the one who hired you, falls in love with a FSBO home.
I understand the B.R.A. States you are entitled to a commission, lets say 2.5% and you have to inform the Buyers of your greed…..ER your intent to assist them. But, unless you state the inclusion of FSBO's , you're up the creek. Good luck chasing down a Buyers activity. What are you going to do….hold their deposit in a Trust Acct?
My suggestion is to get a firm grip and prepare for the tsunami of change to clean up the business. Wipe out the part timers, close the monster Brokeages and ditch all the associations and boards and opt for a revamped 1 board/association for each province. Increase the level of education and go to a 3 tiered graduation system similar to a drivers license. Oh wouldn't that be dandy.
Remember, RealtySellers is just opening up a flaw in the system called real estate. They won't change the way YOU do business. But they ARE changing the way Sellers do business.
LOL, you want to go back to 1980 when the internet didn't exist. Competiion — you can't handle it. Shame on all of you hacks.
Should Realtysellers win, this may crush CREA, which may crush the existence of realtor.ca (the MLS system as the general public continues to refer to it as).
Would the death of realtor.ca be a good or bad thing? With it's death perhaps Real Estate will swing back to "the way it used to be" and CREA can get back to, as Ross K put it;
"1) Served as a national conduit for my business, to license the trademarks of REALTOR and MLS.
2) Served as a conduit, to voice my profession’s opinions and recommendations, on how best to improve the lives of Canadians through home ownership."
and not "the primary the marketing company for my listings"
Ross and Brian…well said by both of you. It's been years where I've questioned the value to us, as an Association, of mls.ca. It is currently at the root of our industry's problems and as mentioned at a massive cost to the membership. Grass roots is right….want this business to survive, get back to marketing homes via strong presentation, print marketing and an individual/company Internet presence….other than mls.ca. Why do we still have mls.ca…….fold the system……now!
Print marketing, really? This is 2012, not 1985.
REALTOR.ca brings a level of transparency to a business that ethically leaves a lot to be desired. As a consumer of real estate services, you can bet that I would want my listing presented to a national audience of home buyers and not hidden away in an MLS book that realtors control. But don't blame CREA for this mess – blame the internet. But I'm sure it makes no apologies.
But here's a solution. You can simply enter into exclusive listings with your clients if you feel MLS is a detriment to your business. But good luck with having to explain to clients that you won't post their listing to MLS because you feel that print marketing, strong presentation skills and your company's internet presence can do a better job reaching prospective buyers than realtor.ca, the 56th most visited site in Canada.
Classic case of putting your interests in front of those you should be serving.
I think they should not allow any Brokerage/Realtor to charge Flat fees, They should put a rule that if anyone charges less then 5% they will lose their license!
That's called 'price fixing' and is against the law and not just relating to real estate law!
Comments like this will destroy our industry. Agents thinking this way should get out of this business.
Antonio. You need to re-write your license. What you are suggesting is totally illegal. Your comment shows how uninformed you are on a very important matter that all realtors should be familiar with.
If realtysellers win and REALTORS had to dish out $5400 it would sure solve the problem of too many agents.
Except it would be more like $8-10-k each since some of those Realtors you are counting on sharing the cost would be out of the business.
Anyways, why should the judge decide to award one firm those kind of dollars as damages to punitively punish an entire country wide industry, good luck on that one…RealtySellers can never legitimately prove anywhere near that amount….remember they don't really charge much so how can they claim that amount??? Their claim is based on being involved in the majority of real estate deals in Canada since 2006…completely laughable. Having said that they seem to have a case regardless and specifically dealing with the local market they have been operating in…. the claim part is a fantasy.
Mikko, the $5400 is from Ross K's comments below.
In one of my previous posts, I did state that TREB and CREA will lose their appeal. This recent court decision confirms what I said. What will it take to convince these (TREB, CREA etc) dingbats that they are fighting a losing battle? Give it all up before you'd be filing for bankruptcy.
Get it through your thick skulls once and for all, the CB is right in their demand and TREB, CREA and all other foolish dreamers out there are in absolute wrong.
I think this really addresses a major problem we all face. If I continue to allow a non-profit organization to make business decisions on my behalf, for my own personal business, I will continue to be forced to live and pay for those decisions.
Whether it's a 700,000 cash settlement or the ability for FSBOs to be posted on realtor.ca ( a system that costs CREA members over 60 million dollars a year to maintain ) those are the consequences of me being foolish enough to allow an NPO to make business decisions that I am then bound to be accountable for.
Prior it's launch of mls.ca, CREA served ONLY 2 but both noble purposes:
1) Served as a national conduit for my business, to license the trademarks of REALTOR and MLS.
2) Served as a conduit, to voice my profession's opinions and recommendations, on how best to improve the lives of Canadians through home ownership.
Everything else CREA did was in support of these 2 purposes.
Then mls.ca was created (with our co-operative support I must agree) and CREA went from being my conduit, to becoming the primary the marketing company for my listings but….with an NPO mindset.
NPOs by design are looked upon to solve problems. They are reactive in nature. When they try to take proactive measures, almost always their ability to succeed is limited by the very members that belong to them.
RealtySellers has already effectively gotten 7 dollars out of the pockets of every single Canadian REALTOR. This is the reality, not the protestations of an NPO telling everyone not to worry. We heard the same thing before the $700,000 settlement.
Are you prepared to hand over $70 cash, out of your pocket for a 7 million dollar settlement. How about $700 if they settle on 70 million. What about
$5,400 if realtysellers wins.
That is the reality of the decisions we make. I suggest, as business people we all start thinking about this seriously.
Hi Ross:
Unfortunately, many licensed real estate sales representatives do not pay much attention to anything real estate related other than to their next hoped-for commission cheque. They rely on their local boards, OREA and CREA to iron out all of the wrinkles along the way for them. Thus apathy sets in, and becomes an addiction to boot. Witness how few actually respond on-line to REM's articles, out of (how many?) tens-of-thousands of potential readers of said articles (who hopefully consume the information).
Now then, if one was to suggest throwing the CREA brass (who you all, and I used to, pay) out of their offices via country-wide referedum recall procedures, establish grass-roots folks into influential positions long enough to legally wind-up CREA, for example, and therafter immediately establish a new Canadian Operational Real Estate Association, for another example, thus reducing all pending legal actions against CREA to seeking damages from a non-entity (but leaving the personalities named in the suits still exposed), one would likely be thought of as some kind of 'nut-bar-from-out-there' in the hinterland of "Are you kidding me?" mindsets.
I've been called worse, but I have inch-thick skin.
The times are a callin' for creative solutions to what is happening within and without the organized real estate industry, in my opinion.
It might be time to start over.
"Nawww…are you kidding me?"…is the likely refrain for whomever has just read the above.
No outside-the-box thoughts, no guts, no belief in ones' selves equals being trod on again, and again, and again.
Sometimes revolutions do in fact yield positive results, but not without much in the way of foresight, effort and a deep down resolve to win.
It's the fight that most think can not be won that's the one that 'must' be fought, or else, yield…and become patsies.
The NPO types have no idea regarding what I am talking about, I'm sure; it just does not register as being something realistic in their cloistered communal minds. They have nothing really to lose by giving away the farm, being a compilation of tens-of-thousands of others' farms…your farms…licensed real estate sales representative readers.
Let's see how many read the above and expend the minimal energy required to at least click on "Thumbs Up" or "Thumbs Down", either of which at least indicates a modicum of interest in the looming legal battle at hand.
Here is your chance to log in on a referendum of sorts vis a vis the above "Are you kidding me?!" suggestions.
(I don't expect much Ross)
Ergo…my point will have been made…general apathy rules.
Brian.
$60,000,000???? Where are you getting this figure?
I think you are way off on the cost associated with maintaining realtor.ca. WAY off.